Omniverse Map

"I am... the Watcher! I watch countless of differet universes, though never interfere."
~ Uatu, the Watcher


Discussion about your favourite Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe (OHOTMU) issues and more.

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Omniverse Map

Postby Capes (Optional) » Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:04 pm

Historical text from Comixfan.

Michael Regan wrote:May 15, 2012, 10:56 am

Stuart, are you open to discussion regarding your awesome Omniverse Map (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/o/omnimap.htm)?


Stuart V wrote:May 15, 2012, 01:24 pm

Michael Regan wrote:Stuart, are you open to discussion regarding your awesome Omniverse Map (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/o/omnimap.htm)?


Absolutely. Frankly it needs expanding and updating, but I lost the use of my more viable art program after my last computer rebuild, and have yet to get a replacement up to the task. Plus, the whole thing is already so convoluted with lots of links I simply haven't been able to show.


Sidney Osinga wrote:May 15, 2012, 01:43 pm

TMNT are directly connected to the Big Bang universe as they (and Splinter) appeared in Big Bang Comics #10 and seemed to exist in the same world.


Michael Regan wrote:May 15, 2012, 02:45 pm

How far do you think your distinctions could go?

I was thinking of divisions within particular franchises, for example, which could offer further linkages. Take the Logan's Run concepts into consideration:

The original novel series would be the main universe (like Earth-616 placement in the Marvel Multiverse as the main Marvel Universe): Logan's Run, Logan's World, Logan's Search.

The concept was adapted into the theatrical movie and a television series, both individual realities of their own within a Logan's Run Multiverse.

Comic books based on Logan's Run have been developed by Marvel, Malibu and Bluewater publications. I have not read any at this point but the Marvel series may be considered an extention of the theatrical movie. Assuming they are distinct, they could be considered realities of their own.

The Marvel series itself, assuming it has not been given an Earth designation, may be considered to be part of a Marvel Megaverse if not within the Marvel Multiverse, a very broad concept at best of course.


Stuart V wrote:May 15, 2012, 05:27 pm

Michael Regan wrote:How far do you think your distinctions could go?

I was thinking of divisions within particular franchises, for example, which could offer further linkages. Take the Logan's Run concepts into consideration:

The original novel series would be the main universe (like Earth-616 placement in the Marvel Multiverse as the main Marvel Universe): Logan's Run, Logan's World, Logan's Search.

The concept was adapted into the theatrical movie and a television series, both individual realities of their own within a Logan's Run Multiverse.

Comic books based on Logan's Run have been developed by Marvel, Malibu and Bluewater publications. I have not read any at this point but the Marvel series may be considered an extention of the theatrical movie. Assuming they are distinct, they could be considered realities of their own.

The Marvel series itself, assuming it has not been given an Earth designation, may be considered to be part of a Marvel Megaverse if not within the Marvel Multiverse, a very broad concept at best of course.


In theory if the differences aren't too major, then adaptations might simply be considered the same reality - so, for example, novelisations and comic adaptations of movies are usually, but not always, the same reality as the movie the are based on, with changes put down to "different artists", plus "retelling glitches and retcon inserts", like we see for example in the comics when Spider-Man's origin gets retold with minor details conflicting, even though it is all 616. That said, in practice, when something has been adapted multiple times by different companies, you will often find enough differences to justify them being distinct realities. In other words, despite the massive differences in the visuals, the Malibu version of Logan's Run could be the same reality as the Marvel one (the depictions of Logan between Marvel and Malibu, while very, very different, are no worse than, say, Alex Ross and Fred Hembeck both drawing 616 Spider-Man); but story content would probably make them alternate realities.

On the Logan's Run, like you said, you have maybe eight different realities:
original novels
the film adaptation
the TV series
Marvel's series
Malibu's series
Bluewater's series
the UK Annual (http://theworldoflogansrun.net84.net/annual.htm)

The Marvel comic was an adaptation of the film, with #6-7 continuing beyond the movie, so that was intended to be the same reality; whether it actually is depends on how close an adaptation. The UK annual was definitely intended to follow on from the TV show, and the TV show conflicts with the later novels, so we've definitely got a distinct reality. So those eight could become:

The novels, with Malibu and Bluewater being simply the same reality.
The film, with Marvel's series.
The TV series, with the UK annual.

And depending on how faithfully they adapted the first novel and whether those two Marvel original issues contradict the second novel or could slot in to a gap between novel 1 and 2, the film could be the same reality as the novels.

Sidney Osinga wrote:TMNT are directly connected to the Big Bang universe as they (and Splinter) appeared in Big Bang Comics #10 and seemed to exist in the same world.


Hmm. The question becomes, is the Big Bang universe (which one, btw, as there's at least two, Earth's A and B) the same reality as Turtle Prime (any reason they couldn't be?), or did the two temporarily merge (it happens, cf Savage Dragon frequently running into characters who don't belong in his native reality, without anyone suggesting interdimensional travel), or do the Turtles have counterparts on Big Bang Earth? See my ramblings on the Omniversal terminology page (link at the bottom of the map page).


Eduardo M. wrote:May 15, 2012, 05:44 pm

As far as adaptations are concerned, is there any case where we can say that one could simply be treated as a fictional work and not a true reality? For ex: Can any of the aforementioned Logan's Run comics be treated as just a story and not an alternate reality?


Stuart V wrote:May 15, 2012, 06:12 pm

Eduardo M. wrote:As far as adaptations are concerned, is there any case where we can say that one could simply be treated as a fictional work and not a true reality? For ex: Can any of the aforementioned Logan's Run comics be treated as just a story and not an alternate reality?


Nope. Infinite multiverse and too many confirmed cases of what was considered a fictional story in one reality being revealed as a valid alternate reality.


Angelicknight wrote:May 15, 2012, 06:16 pm

Here is one from '95/'96 the cartoons Savage Dragon, Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat: Defenders of the Realm and Wing Commander Academy all crossover. A Warrior King chasing a magical sphere appears on each show and at the end of the episode jumps through a portal to the next universe/show.


Stuart V wrote:May 15, 2012, 07:23 pm

Cool! There's undoubtedly more crossovers I remain unaware of, or just haven't gotten round to listing yet. Some of the computer games ones for instance, that confirm realities where various beat 'em up game characters share realities with other beat 'em ups or Marvel or DC characters.


Eduardo M. wrote:May 15, 2012, 08:05 pm

Stuart V wrote:Nope. Infinite multiverse and too many confirmed cases of what was considered a fictional story in one reality being revealed as a valid alternate reality.


Hmmm... the reason I bring it up is I remember reading the anime Macross Do You Remember Love exists in the world of Robotech/Macross as fictional version of what "really happened"


Stuart V wrote:May 15, 2012, 08:16 pm

Eduardo M. wrote:Hmmm... the reason I bring it up is I remember reading the anime Macross Do You Remember Love exists in the world of Robotech/Macross as fictional version of what "really happened"


The DC universe is a fictional world to the people of Milestone, but they still crossed over. Kitty's Fairy Tale world is a fiction within 616, but Nightcrawler still visited it. Barry Allen knew of the Earth 2 Flash as a fictional character, but then he met him. Harold Shea of the Incompleat Enchanter regularly visited worlds which were considered fictional in his own reality. The world seen in 1982 considered the Marvel universe (616) characters to be fictional, but that didn't stop characters from 616 showing up there.

Depending on your viewpoint, either it comes down to infinite realities meaning that any reality someone can conceive of will actually match a genuine alternate reality just by the laws of probability, or people in one reality are subconsciously accessing visions of what is happening in other realities, usually in dreams, and then transcribing those dreams into stories thinking they are fiction while actually unwittingly recording true events.


Sidney Osinga wrote:May 15, 2012, 11:45 pm

Eduardo M. wrote:The world seen in 1982 considered the Marvel universe (616) characters to be fictional, but that didn't stop characters from 616 showing up there.


I think you mean 1985.

And examples to the list is that the Marvel Universe is fiction in both the original New Universe and the world Nth Man was set in, yet characters still crossed over.


Stuart V wrote:May 16, 2012, 07:07 am

Sidney Osinga wrote:I think you mean 1985.


Sidney Osinga wrote:And examples to the list is that the Marvel Universe is fiction in both the original New Universe and the world Nth Man was set in, yet characters still crossed over.


Yes, and yes, two good additional examples.


Michael Regan wrote:May 16, 2012, 09:04 am

Eduardo M. wrote:As far as adaptations are concerned, is there any case where we can say that one could simply be treated as a fictional work and not a true reality? For ex: Can any of the aforementioned Logan's Run comics be treated as just a story and not an alternate reality?


Another, possibly the ultimate example, is that the pre-Crisis Earth-Two was only a fictional reality existing in comic books on Earth-One. Barry Allen read about the adventures of Jay Garrick which prompted him to take on the name of the Flash. Quite the surprise for him when he actually managed to get to Earth-Two and meet his fictional hero. If I remember correctly, the comics Barry read were also noted as being written by Gardner Fox who actually wrote the real world comics.

Stuart V wrote:On the Logan's Run, like you said, you have maybe eight different realities:
original novels
the film adaptation
the TV series
Marvel's series
Malibu's series
Bluewater's series
the UK Annual (http://theworldoflogansrun.net84.net/annual.htm)


Thanks for inclusing the Annual, I had forgotten about that one.

Now, what is your take on my extended "megaverse" connection between the Logan's Run universe and the Marvel Universe? (I'm building on something here :))


Stuart V wrote:May 16, 2012, 09:56 am

Michael Regan wrote:Now, what is your take on my extended "megaverse" connection between the Logan's Run universe and the Marvel Universe? (I'm building on something here :))


I'd imagine the Marvel version of Logan's Run (and hence, potentially, the film version) is in the Marvel Megaverse, though I don't think there's been any solid connection established - I don't think any Logan's Run world has been visited by anyone from an alternate reality, or vice versa (except perhaps in fan fiction, but, while even fan fic realities would count as part of the Omniverse, trying to track them or use crossovers from those as evidence is begging for a headache). Note that the Thanos / Drax story in Logan's Run #6 is set in 616, and there's no interaction with the world of the main story.


Michael Regan wrote:May 16, 2012, 12:42 pm

The reason I ask specifically is that Marvel's Logan's Run series is not part of the Marvel Multiverse simply due to the lack of an Earth designation, placing it into the Megaverse at best unlike Marvel's Planet of the Apes magazine, which was assigned an Earth designation (IIRC). Unless the designation is attributed to a back-up story (I am not familiar with the issue), this essentially connects the Planet of the Apes reality to the Marvel Universe.

Malibu published a mini-series combining Planet of the Apes and Alien Nation titles Ape Nation.

Your brief mention of Boris the Bear can be extended, although through broad parody, to include TMNT, Cerebus, Transformers, Looney Tunes, various Marvel and DC characters, and many more.


Stuart V wrote:May 16, 2012, 02:09 pm

Michael Regan wrote:The reason I ask specifically is that Marvel's Logan's Run series is not part of the Marvel Multiverse simply due to the lack of an Earth designation, placing it into the Megaverse at best


A designator doesn't mean it is part of the Marvel multiverse. We give designators to realities that are outwith the Marvel multiverse when the need arises - such as the Army of Darkness reality, because that reality's Ash travelled to the Marvel Zombies reality.

Michael Regan wrote:unlike Marvel's Planet of the Apes magazine, which was assigned an Earth designation (IIRC). Unless the designation is attributed to a back-up story (I am not familiar with the issue), this essentially connects the Planet of the Apes reality to the Marvel Universe.


I believe we've only done so for the version of Planet of the Apes that has Apeslayer, who is a counterpart of Killraven. Basically the Marvel UK PotA, as PotA, like Transformers, has subtly different realities for the US and UK titles.

Michael Regan wrote:Malibu published a mini-series combining Planet of the Apes and Alien Nation titles Ape Nation.


Yup - that'd definitely count as yet another Ape reality.

Michael Regan wrote:Your brief mention of Boris the Bear can be extended, although through broad parody, to include TMNT, Cerebus, Transformers, Looney Tunes, various Marvel and DC characters, and many more.


Those would be analogues, rather than direct counterparts, which are evidence of links to other realities, but only count as weaker evidence.


Michael Regan wrote:May 16, 2012, 05:19 pm

Back to Logan's Run for a moment, how familiar are you with the Look In comic strip run? I'm pretty sure there were some Logan's Run strips in those as well. I wish these were available to read in some format.

Returning current to topic direction: A reality catagorized from a "Marvel Universe" pespective only; I had not thought of that which is obviously evident. I may have to revisit my classification list to indicate such disctinctions. I'm not familiar with Apeslayer, so I'll have to do some research on him.

How do you distinguish between counterparts and analogues?


captainswift wrote:May 16, 2012, 05:40 pm

Michael Regan wrote:How do you distinguish between counterparts and analogues?


The Superman who appears in Superman vs. Spider-Man is not the mainstream DC Universe character, but is still the DC trademarked character. He's a counterpart. So is the Superman from the movies, the old TV show, or the animated series.

Superbman from Not Brand Ecch is based on the DC character Superman, but isn't. He's an analogue, as are all parody characters, but also "homage" characters like Hyperion.

Short version: If they are using the trademark, you have a counterpart. If they're tiptoeing around the trademark, you have an analogue.


Michael Regan wrote:May 16, 2012, 06:15 pm

captainswift wrote:The Superman who appears in Superman vs. Spider-Man is not the mainstream DC Universe character, but is still the DC trademarked character. He's a counterpart. So is the Superman from the movies, the old TV show, or the animated series.

Superbman from Not Brand Ecch is based on the DC character Superman, but isn't. He's an analogue, as are all parody characters, but also "homage" characters like Hyperion.

Short version: If they are using the trademark, you have a counterpart. If they're tiptoeing around the trademark, you have an analogue.


Works for me, thanks Cap. That opens my classification possibilities a little more :D


Stuart V wrote:May 16, 2012, 06:29 pm

Michael Regan wrote:Back to Logan's Run for a moment, how familiar are you with the Look In comic strip run? I'm pretty sure there were some Logan's Run strips in those as well. I wish these were available to read in some format.


Ah, yes, forgot that one. I know of the Look-In stories, but not any real details. There's some details online here
http://theworldoflogansrun.net84.net/comics.htm
They are based on the TV version, so in theory could fit the same reality as the TV show and UK annuals.

Michael Regan wrote:Returning current to topic direction: A reality catagorized from a "Marvel Universe" pespective only; I had not thought of that which is obviously evident. I may have to revisit my classification list to indicate such disctinctions. I'm not familiar with Apeslayer, so I'll have to do some research on him.


26th October 1974 saw the simultaneous launch of Planet of the Apes and Dracula Lives!. Soon Planet of the Apes started to catch up with the US title and thus was in danger of running out of reprint material, so between #24 and #30 the title ran redrawn Killraven stories, revising the text and art to replace Martians with Apes to create Apeslayer. Though not strictly an original story, it marks Marvel UK's first foray into not just reprinting US material.
http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/a/apeslayer.htm

Michael Regan wrote:How do you distinguish between counterparts and analogues?


captainswift wrote:The Superman who appears in Superman vs. Spider-Man is not the mainstream DC Universe character, but is still the DC trademarked character. He's a counterpart. So is the Superman from the movies, the old TV show, or the animated series.

Superbman from Not Brand Ecch is based on the DC character Superman, but isn't. He's an analogue, as are all parody characters, but also "homage" characters like Hyperion.

Short version: If they are using the trademark, you have a counterpart. If they're tiptoeing around the trademark, you have an analogue.


Exactly right. There's some gray areas - though strictly speaking a counterpart should match name and costume, some leeway is allowed. Captain America and the zombie Colonel America are so close to one another they can be considered counterparts, despite slight differences in name and costume. Superbman and Superman are as close in name and appearance as the two Americas, but they are still analogues.


Stuart V wrote:May 16, 2012, 08:25 pm

Some alternate reality stuff I've been percolating for a while, trying to get a proper handle on before putting it my Omniverse pages. These fall under "things people keep getting wrong about alternate realities / the multiverse / Omniverse":

People say:
“it was a story, not an alternate reality”
Evidence to the contrary: Kitty’s Fairytale, our reality being part of Marvel’s multiverse, DC comics being represented in Milestone’s Dakotaverse, the Incompleat Enchanter, Marvel being fictional in the 1985 reality, Earth-2 being fictional in Earth-1

“it’s a What If, not an alternate reality”
Avengers Forever depicts characters from various What Ifs, the first ever What If issue showed us known alternate realities that all later interacted with 616 (Deathlok, Guardians of the Galaxy, Killraven), Elseworlds characters turn up in DC’s 52 universes, Living Laser flew into Uatu’s alternate reality viewer in an issue of Quasar and as a result showed up in the issue of What If? that Uatu was looking in on.

“it’s a cartoon, not an alternate reality”
Next Avengers cartoon characters turned up in the Avengers comic, Batman Beyond showed up in DC52 comics, TMNT original comics show up in the Turtles Forever cartoon

“it’s a movie, not an alternate reality”
the Turtles Forever cartoon showed the characters looking at windows on to the Turtles multiverse, which included scenes from Turtle comics, anime, RPGs and, significant for this point, the TMNT movies

“it’s a book, not an alternate reality”
Fahfrd and the Gray Mouser come from a series of books, but Wonder Woman managed to visit their reality.

corollary – the medium a story appears in does not preclude it being an alternate reality

“it's an altered reality (pre-existing timeline got altered), not alternate reality”
Avengers Forever features characters from Forever Yesterday and Amalgam, both previously considered merely altered versions of 616, and the altered reality that was Age of Apocalypse survived even after 616 was restored.

"it's a crossover comic between companies, not an alternate reality"
The first What If? shows a scene from the Spider-Man / Superman crossover among all the other alternate realities, and in Avengers Forever when Immortus is discussing alternate realities we again see a scene from that same company crossover story.


Michael Regan wrote:May 21, 2012, 07:49 pm

You've mentioned encounter between Scooby-Doo and Batman from The New Scooby-Doo Movies television series, an appearance which I believe predates Hanna-Barbara's Super Friends. Given the appearance it is likely that the Dynamic Duo may actually be the same characters which appear in the Super Friends series, although evidence is inconclusive.

The New Scooby-Doo Movies also featured appearances by many celebrities but also other characters including Josie and the Pussycats, Jeannie (I Dream of Jeannie), Speed Buggy and even The Addams Family which also predates Hanna-Barbara's animated Adams Family television series.


Michael Regan wrote:May 21, 2012, 07:54 pm

Stuart, you mentioned a software problem with updating/recreating your Omniversal Map. What software did you use? Perhaps I can look into another option when I have the time.


Stuart V wrote:May 21, 2012, 08:03 pm

Michael Regan wrote:You've mentioned encounter between Scooby-Doo and Batman from The New Scooby-Doo Movies television series, an appearance which I believe predates Hanna-Barbara's Super Friends. Given the appearance it is likely that the Dynamic Duo may actually be the same characters which appear in the Super Friends series, although evidence is inconclusive.

The New Scooby-Doo Movies also featured appearances by many celebrities but also other characters including Josie and the Pussycats, Jeannie (I Dream of Jeannie), Speed Buggy and even The Addams Family which also predates Hanna-Barbara's animated Adams Family television series.


Plus the most recent Scooby Doo series has seen guest appearances by Captain Caveman and the Teen Angels, Speed Buggy, Jabberjaw and the Funky Phantom. And the Scooby Gang turned up in Johnny Bravo, American Dragon and Kim Possible both encountered Lilo and Stitch, Space Ghost teamed up with Mightor, Shazzan and the Herculoids, Popeye has met Mandrake and Flash Gordon, Dynomutt was repaired by Dexter of Dexter's Laboratory, etc. Even discounting "joke" cameos where a character is seen but not identified or necessarily authorised by copyright owners to appear, cartoons are pretty darned incestuous when it comes to one another.


Stuart V wrote:May 21, 2012, 08:05 pm

Michael Regan wrote:Stuart, you mentioned a software problem with updating/recreating your Omniversal Map. What software did you use? Perhaps I can look into another option when I have the time.


I had Photoshop at the time, which allowed me to have layers - thus I could remove or reposition links when I realised I'd backed myself into a corner trying to piece everything together.


Michael Regan wrote:May 21, 2012, 08:09 pm

Stuart V wrote:Plus the most recent Scooby Doo series has seen guest appearances by Captain Caveman and the Teen Angels, Speed Buggy, Jabberjaw and the Funky Phantom. And the Scooby Gang turned up in Johnny Bravo, American Dragon and Kim Possible both encountered Lilo and Stitch, Space Ghost teamed up with Mightor, Shazzan and the Herculoids, Popeye has met Mandrake and Flash Gordon, Dynomutt was repaired by Dexter of Dexter's Laboratory, etc. Even discounting "joke" cameos where a character is seen but not identified or necessarily authorised by copyright owners to appear, cartoons are pretty darned incestuous when it comes to one another.


Wow, I know more about the older series so these are quite the revelations.

Looking back on Who Framed Roger Rabbit?, (essentially an alternate reality version of the novel Who Censure Roger Rabbit?), and considering the loose dynamics of the original cartoons involved in the amalgamated appearances in the feature, couldn't these be the actual characters from the original productions rather than simply counterparts?


Michael Regan wrote:May 21, 2012, 08:10 pm

Stuart V wrote:I had Photoshop at the time, which allowed me to have layers - thus I could remove or reposition links when I realised I'd backed myself into a corner trying to piece everything together.


I have a version of Photoshop (not sure how old it is), although I am not well versed in how to use it. I could learn given time...


Stuart V wrote:May 21, 2012, 08:15 pm

Michael Regan wrote:Wow, I know more about the older series so these are quite the revelations.

Looking back on Who Framed Roger Rabbit?, (essentially an alternate reality version of the novel Who Censure Roger Rabbit?), and considering the loose dynamics of the original cartoons involved in the amalgamated appearances in the feature, couldn't these be the actual characters from the original productions rather than simply counterparts?


Yes, in theory they could be. The Warners Bros characters certainly always knew they were actors working in the feature film industry - in more than a few cartoons they openly discussed their status, quit, ripped up contracts, etc. So their depiction in Who Framed Roger Rabbit is not at all out of step with their original cartoons.


Michael Regan wrote:May 22, 2012, 09:00 am

No big linking connection that I can think of at the moment, but there was a short-live television series called Total Recall 2070 which I quite enjoyed back in 1999. It combined the concepts of Blade Runner (1982) and Total Recall (1990) into a single reality. Of course, the two original movies are base on stories written by Philip K. Dick, so it is not too much of a stretch.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:May 22, 2012, 06:09 pm

Here's a link to an insane number of TV crossovers (some more official than others)
http://poobala.com/crossoverlist.html


captainswift wrote:May 22, 2012, 06:57 pm

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Here's a link to an insane number of TV crossovers (some more official than others)
http://poobala.com/crossoverlist.html


Which reminds of the Westphall Universe (https://thetommywestphall.wordpress.com/), of course.


Michael Regan wrote:May 22, 2012, 07:48 pm

captainswift wrote:Which reminds of the Westphall Universe (https://thetommywestphall.wordpress.com/), of course.


I love that one, although many of the links are vague references/mentions like calling Trapper John over the PA in St. Elsewhere...


Michael Regan wrote:May 22, 2012, 08:14 pm

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Here's a link to an insane number of TV crossovers (some more official than others)
http://poobala.com/crossoverlist.html


I love how Lucy Ricardo technically exists in the same reality as Lucy Carmichael.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:May 22, 2012, 10:43 pm

Michael Regan wrote:I love how Lucy Ricardo technically exists in the same reality as Lucy Carmichael.


My own favourite bit is the reason why Hill Street Blues and NYPD Blue exist in the same universe.


Stuart V wrote:May 23, 2012, 05:42 am

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:My own favourite bit is the reason why Hill Street Blues and NYPD Blue exist in the same universe.


Personally, and it's one which doesn't have connections at this time, I'd love for CSI Miami and Dexter to share a reality. Just imagine the CSI team calling in Dexter's expertise, or trying to investigate one of Dexter's murders.


Michael Regan wrote:May 23, 2012, 08:50 am

Something to consider when you are bored... Conan the Barbarian and the Terminator are alternate reality counterparts. Iron Man and Sherlock Holmes are alternate reality counterparts. Even the Human Torch and Captain America are alternate reality counterparts.

Yes, think about it ;)


Eduardo M. wrote:May 23, 2012, 02:58 pm

That page is missing the Sunbow 80s universe of GIJoe/Transformers/Jem/Inhumanoids, all of which share the character of Hector Ramirez. Buzz Dixon (who wrote several of those cartoons) even wanted members of the Autobots and GIJoe to cameo in the My Little Pony movie


Michael Regan wrote:May 23, 2012, 03:16 pm

He was a reporter, wasn't he (will dig out Transformers DVDs...)

I think there were more links between Hasbro cartoons; I'll have to find where I saw that.


Eduardo M. wrote:May 23, 2012, 05:08 pm

Michael Regan wrote:He was a reporter, wasn't he (will dig out Transformers DVDs...)


I think there were more links between Hasbro cartoons; I'll have to find where I saw that. Michael Regan

Yeah. Hector Ramirez was a parody of Geraldo Rivera that got used as a reporter in the Sunbow cartoons.

Another Hasbro cartoon link is Cobra Commander's appearance as "Old Snake" in the Transformers Season 3 episode "Only Human". He even ends the episode uttering the Cobra battlecry

Plus there's Flint being the father of TF season 3 character Marissa Fairborne.


Stuart V wrote:May 23, 2012, 08:42 pm

Michael Regan wrote:Something to consider when you are bored... Conan the Barbarian and the Terminator are alternate reality counterparts. Iron Man and Sherlock Holmes are alternate reality counterparts. Even the Human Torch and Captain America are alternate reality counterparts.

Yes, think about it ;)


I should point out that while the above makes for a funny joke, it doesn't stand up in a more serious attempt to map Omniversal connections. Matching realities based on a given actor having played multiple roles doesn't count as a genuine connection any more than American Flagg being a counterpart to Dominic Fortune simply because the man who created both of them, Howard Chaykin, draws them both looking almost facially identical.

That said, it does remind me of an idea I came up with years ago to while away time on car journeys - recast a movie using the same actors, but playing their parts with the personalities of another character they portrayed. For some "actors" you wouldn't notice the difference - either they can only play one type of character or else they only ever get asked to play one type (Michael Caine and Sean Connery both fall into the latter category a lot of the time). But in some cases it can make for a radically different movie.

Eduardo M. wrote:That page is missing the Sunbow 80s universe of GIJoe/Transformers/Jem/Inhumanoids, all of which share the character of Hector Ramirez. Buzz Dixon (who wrote several of those cartoons) even wanted members of the Autobots and GIJoe to cameo in the My Little Pony movie


I should point out that Hector Ramirez on his own doesn't necessarily prove a shared reality. That all depends on whether there are any other aspects of the given cartoons which would preclude them taking place on a single world. He would, however, provide a counterpart link to show them as realities sharing a multiverse.

Michael Regan wrote:Another Hasbro cartoon link is Cobra Commander's appearance as "Old Snake" in the Transformers Season 3 episode "Only Human". He even ends the episode uttering the Cobra battlecry

Plus there's Flint being the father of TF season 3 character Marissa Fairborne.


The Cobra Commander one might only be considered a weak link if he's not identified, kind of like the Lois and Clark of the Marvel universe are considered weak evidence of sharing an Omniverse with DC (by weak link, btw, I mean that while many of us would accept subtle cameos like that, because they are unofficial and not explicitly stated to be who they look like, the people who like to segment fictional realities and argue they aren't all part of one big connected Omniverse would argue they don't count).

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:My own favourite bit is the reason why Hill Street Blues and NYPD Blue exist in the same universe.


Just noting that this and similar crossovers are evidence of a Wold Newton-style shared universe, rather than linked realities. Still good for providing connections, but again considered weaker evidence for making the case because the "there are separate Omniverses for all the different companies" crowds would not accept such shared realities as evidence for a single Omniverse.


Eduardo M. wrote:May 23, 2012, 11:22 pm

Stuart V wrote:I should point out that Hector Ramirez on his own doesn't necessarily prove a shared reality. That all depends on whether there are any other aspects of the given cartoons which would preclude them taking place on a single world. He would, however, provide a counterpart link to show them as realities sharing a multiverse.

The Cobra Commander one might only be considered a weak link if he's not identified, kind of like the Lois and Clark of the Marvel universe are considered weak evidence of sharing an Omniverse with DC (by weak link, btw, I mean that while many of us would accept subtle cameos like that, because they are unofficial and not explicitly stated to be who they look like, the people who like to segment fictional realities and argue they aren't all part of one big connected Omniverse would argue they don't count).


Creators of the shows such as Flint Dille and Buzz Dixon have said that the Ramirez who appears in all the cartoons is the same guy. I think in this instance its a Word of God thing


Stuart V wrote:May 24, 2012, 12:39 am

Eduardo M. wrote:Creators of the shows such as Flint Dille and Buzz Dixon have said that the Ramirez who appears in all the cartoons is the same guy. I think in this instance its a Word of God thing


I have no problem with the idea it is the same guy - but when they say "same guy" that doesn't clarify if it is the exact same individual, or the "same guy" in the sense that all the different versions of Sherlock Holmes across the multiverse are the same guy. That all depends on whether the versions of Earth seen in each series are compatible with one another.


captainswift wrote:May 24, 2012, 03:19 am

Eduardo M. wrote:Yeah. Hector Ramirez was a parody of Geraldo Rivera that got used as a reporter in the Sunbow cartoons.

Another Hasbro cartoon link is Cobra Commander's appearance as "Old Snake" in the Transformers Season 3 episode "Only Human". He even ends the episode uttering the Cobra battlecry

Plus there's Flint being the father of TF season 3 character Marissa Fairborne.


A third, often forgotten connection between G.I. Joe and Transformers is the Transformers episode "Prime Target", where Oktober Guard member Daina appears very briefly. She's referred to as "Oktober Guard One", but Word of God makes her Daina, and even if it didn't, the Oktober Guard is a solid fixture of the Joe Universe.


Michael Regan wrote:May 24, 2012, 08:28 am

The Hector Ramarez, Cobra Commander, and similar examples causes confusion in the general population as most people to not grasp the "alternate reality coutnerpart" concept, sticking with the "He looks the same and he has the same name, therefore it is the same realty" concept.


This can be taken into account with the example I previously mentioned regarding Lucy Ricardo and Lucy Carmichael. Although during her mistaken draft into the army, Lucy Carmichael met a character who could easily have been considered Gomer Pyle (even played by Jim Neighbors) the character is never named specifically giving a week connection following Stuarts classification system. Even if he were named, considering other oddities in the show could indicate an alternate reality counterpart rather then the same reality.


captainswift wrote:May 24, 2012, 11:45 am

The Hector Ramarez, Cobra Commander, and similar examples causes confusion in the general population as most people to not grasp the "alternate reality coutnerpart" concept, sticking with the "He looks the same and he has the same name, therefore it is the same realty" concept.


Honestly, I don't think the general population cares about these things at all. They recognize Gomer Pyle, enjoy the laugh, and move on, not terribly worried about shared realities, the implications of them being in the same universe, or whether any of it matters in either show's continuity. These are concerns only in the world of hardcore nerd-dom.


Michael Regan wrote:May 24, 2012, 06:49 pm

As I was thinking of old cartoon, Defenders of the Earth (1986) came to mind and the King Features characters may be worth looking into as many have hit various publishers over the years for licensed usage, much like the use of Doc Savage and the Shadow. I don't know if a shared reality was originally implied, but the cartoon has counterparts in a shared reality.


Clay Olsen wrote:May 25, 2012, 03:59 am

Aww... no Tick Universe (NEC press) on the multiverse map. :(

Though now after last weeks Tick #100, its got a direct tie to Invincible.


Michael Regan wrote:May 25, 2012, 12:01 pm

Clay Olsen wrote:Aww... no Tick Universe (NEC press) on the multiverse map. :(

Though now after last weeks Tick #100, its got a direct tie to Invincible.


The Tick can be inserted easily enough (dotted lines) since Big Shot is an analogue of the Punisher, the Caped Wonder is an analogue of Superman, Oedipus is an analogue of Elektra, etc.


Michael Regan wrote:May 28, 2012, 01:08 pm

I need to catch up on some reading which includes Stephen King's Dark Tower series to I'm not sure how this is worded specifically, but in the fifth book, The Wolves of the Calla, I believe it is implied that the decay in the Dark Tower reality is causing multiple realities of the omniverse to bleed into each other and overlap. One character in the book apparently resembles Doctor Doom who uses weapons called sneetches, modified golden snitches from the Harry Potter series.


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 1, 2012, 12:40 pm

Perhaps a bit of a stretch, but I just read one of the 90s comics promoting literacy, Adventures in Reading Starring the Amazing Spider-Man (1990) which had Spidey transported directly into the realities found within books. There is no reason why the story cannot be part of Earth-616 and the stories visited / connected to are:
The Lost World - Arthur Conan Doyle
War of the Worlds - H. G. Wells
The Jungle Book - Rudyard Kipling
Ivanhoe - Sir Walter Scott
Shogun - James A. Clavell
That Was Then, This Is Now - S. E. Hinton


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 1, 2012, 01:49 pm

Correction, the Shogun novel is seen but not visited.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jun 15, 2012, 12:52 am

Stuart, you created InternationalHero? I LOVE that site.

You're probably already aware of some of the following sites for crossover information:
http://www.pjfarmer.com/woldnewton/Pulp.htm
http://ratmmjess.tripod.com/wold.html
http://www.coolfrenchcomics.com/wnu1.htm
http://www.televisioncrossoveruniverse.com/
http://crossover.bureau42.com/
http://www.reocities.com/tigertron007.geo/CROSS.html

Two very interesting comic-book threads can be found here:
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.co ... s-archive/
http://www.comicscube.com/2011/06/easte ... index.html

Other crossovers: Fantastic Four True Story, Infestation, Prophecy, Daemonstorm, Scarlet Traces, Lost Girls, Shi/Cyblaade: The Battle For Independents, Captain N: The Game Master, Tales of the Shadowmen, Thursday Next, Kingdom Hearts, Super Smash Bros., South Park: Imaginationland, and, if you want to get really ridiculous, The Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny.

You mentioned the only link you could find for Ninja High School is Twilight Avenger. It also crossed over with Speed Racer and Gold Digger, if that’s any help.

Lastly, I’m a graphic designer, so perhaps I could help out with Photoshop?


Stuart V wrote:Jun 15, 2012, 08:46 am

Michael Regan wrote:As I was thinking of old cartoon, Defenders of the Earth (1986) came to mind and the King Features characters may be worth looking into as many have hit various publishers over the years for licensed usage, much like the use of Doc Savage and the Shadow. I don't know if a shared reality was originally implied, but the cartoon has counterparts in a shared reality.


Mandrake attended the Phantom's wedding in the comic strips I believe, so they, at least, already shared a reality. But the cartoon brings in the likes of Flash Gordon to the mix. And the Phantom has met Captain Action in a Moonstone crossover story, and Captain Action has met Green Hornet (Moonstone's Captain Action Winter Special), and Captain Action is in War of the Independents - thus confirming King's Features and Green Hornet are linked to the wider Omniverse.

Clay Olsen wrote:Aww... no Tick Universe (NEC press) on the multiverse map. :(


If no links were found at the time, I usually left them off. But that said, there are links now...

Clay Olsen wrote:Though now after last weeks Tick #100, its got a direct tie to Invincible.


And via War of the Independents to several others.

Michael Regan wrote:Perhaps a bit of a stretch, but I just read one of the 90s comics promoting literacy, Adventures in Reading Starring the Amazing Spider-Man (1990) which had Spidey transported directly into the realities found within books. There is no reason why the story cannot be part of Earth-616 and the stories visited / connected to are:
The Lost World - Arthur Conan Doyle
War of the Worlds - H. G. Wells
The Jungle Book - Rudyard Kipling
Ivanhoe - Sir Walter Scott
Shogun - James A. Clavell
That Was Then, This Is Now - S. E. Hinton


I concur. Some of these might be based on "real" events in 616, but even if they aren't, their presence here would count as links. And, though only a counterpart link, being able to link Marvel to the Jungle Book characters bring Fables into the Omniversal fold.

zuckyd1 wrote:Stuart, you created InternationalHero? I LOVE that site.


Yes, that's my site. Glad you like it!

zuckyd1 wrote:You're probably already aware of some of the following sites for crossover information:
http://www.pjfarmer.com/woldnewton/Pulp.htm
http://ratmmjess.tripod.com/wold.html
http://www.coolfrenchcomics.com/wnu1.htm
http://www.televisioncrossoveruniverse.com/
http://crossover.bureau42.com/
http://www.reocities.com/tigertron007.geo/CROSS.html

Two very interesting comic-book threads can be found here:
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.co ... s-archive/
http://www.comicscube.com/2011/06/easte ... index.html

Other crossovers: Fantastic Four True Story, Infestation, Prophecy, Daemonstorm, Scarlet Traces, Lost Girls, Shi/Cyblaade: The Battle For Independents, Captain N: The Game Master, Tales of the Shadowmen, Thursday Next, Kingdom Hearts, Super Smash Bros., South Park: Imaginationland, and, if you want to get really ridiculous, The Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny.


I knew of some of these, but not all, so thanks! I seriously need to update the Omniverse pages. It's just finding the time to do so.

zuckyd1 wrote:You mentioned the only link you could find for Ninja High School is Twilight Avenger. It also crossed over with Speed Racer and Gold Digger, if that’s any help.


I'd not counted Gold Digger since that and NHS kind of share a reality. On the other hand, I'd overlooked Speed Racer - so the question now is, have either Gold Digger or Speed Racer crossed with any other series?

zuckyd1 wrote:Lastly, I’m a graphic designer, so perhaps I could help out with Photoshop?


Any help gratefully received. The current map is, unsurprisingly, a tangled mess, and that's before trying to add in links I've overlooked. So anyone who can suggest ways to fix it or has the ability to construct a better one is welcome to do so.


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 20, 2012, 12:38 pm

There is also the "hint" that the Lone Ranger (John Reid) is ancestor to the Green Hornet (Britt Reid) in the original radio play (IIRC) which was expanded on in the Now comic book series.

The "coming soon" film Wreck-it Ralph connects various video games into a shared reality including Mortal Combat, Pac-Man, Street Fighter, Sonic the Hedgehog, Super Mario Bros, etc. Funny how this list includes Super Mario Bros as the featured fictional game Wreck-it Ralph is an altered version of Donkey Kong.


Clay Olsen wrote:Jun 23, 2012, 04:24 pm

Stuart V wrote:And via War of the Independents to several others.


oh wow! I haven't been paying to much attention to the independent side of things lately... I wasn't aware that Tick (and Scud for that matter!) were playing a part in WotI. Maybe i'll have to check it out then.


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 30, 2012, 03:18 pm

The Doctor Who story "The Mind Robber" ties the Doctor Who Universe in with various other works of fictions of the "The Land of Fiction" reality including Gulliver's Travels, Rapunzel, and stories from Greek mythology.


Stuart V wrote:Jul 5, 2012, 01:40 pm

Though some might decry counting them as evidence, I'd say that the crossover adverts for several USA shows, such as Burn Notice / White Collar, count as evidence that they also coexist in a single universe. The ads tie in Psych, Fairly Legal and Royal Pains too. There's also an older ad that shows Monk encountering Dead Zone's Johnny Smith.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Jul 5, 2012, 02:08 pm

Stuart V wrote:Though some might decry counting them as evidence, I'd say that the crossover adverts for several USA shows, such as Burn Notice / White Collar, count as evidence that they also coexist in a single universe. The ads tie in Psych, Fairly Legal and Royal Pains too. There's also an older ad that shows Monk encountering Dead Zone's Johnny Smith.


Well if we count TV crossovers then …

All the old TGIF shows (Full House, Family Matters, Boy Meets World, ect) used to crossover on occasion. Sabrina the Teenage Witch was a TGIF show. Sabrina is part of the Archie Comics Universe. Now I sort of want to see what sort of mad science Dilton Doiley and Steve Urkel can get up to.

Then there’s the St. Elsewhere thing. I haven’t seen the show but I know how it ended. It isn’t much of a leap to say that every other show it crossed over with (and all the shows THEY crossed over with and so on) are part of the same fantasy. Frasier is probably also an autistic child’s daydream.


Stuart V wrote:Jul 5, 2012, 02:34 pm

Zack Kinkead wrote:Well if we count TV crossovers then …


TV crossovers definitely count, though usually that's no big deal, as most are set in "the real world" and so it's easy to assume they would share a reality anyway. But, as your comment below illustrates, they also cross over with comic realities from time to time, which is very relevant to our discussion.

Zack Kinkead wrote:Then there’s the St. Elsewhere thing. I haven’t seen the show but I know how it ended. It isn’t much of a leap to say that every other show it crossed over with (and all the shows THEY crossed over with and so on) are part of the same fantasy. Frasier is probably also an autistic child’s daydream.


Remember, such daydreams of other worlds are considered to be glimpses into "real" alternate realities. There's a lot of precedent for that.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Jul 5, 2012, 03:21 pm

Stuart V wrote:TV crossovers definitely count, though usually that's no big deal, as most are set in "the real world" and so it's easy to assume they would share a reality anyway.


The really depends on how you define “real world”. Eureka (which crossed over with Warehouse 13) was blatantly Sci-Fi from the beginning but you can do some hand waving and say that the fact that it’s a SECRET community means it could still be “real”. Then you have something like Family Matters – which started out fairly real – and went more and more Sci-Fi in later seasons.

Also, I sort of feel like the things in most soap operas would be a bigger deal if they happened in the real world. A few years ago there was a local guy who tried to fake his own death and run off with some investor money; it made the national news. Stuff like that is an overused cliché in a soap opera.

Stuart V wrote:But, as your comment below illustrates, they also cross over with comic realities from time to time, which is very relevant to our discussion.


Speaking of which, did you read the Star Trek/Legion crossover? I’m not sure if Easter Eggs really count but, if the villain’s trophy room is any indication, everything from Dr. Who to HG Wells’ Time Machine are part of the same multiverse.

Stuart V wrote:Remember, such daydreams of other worlds are considered to be glimpses into "real" alternate realities. There's a lot of precedent for that.


Only the Watcher knows for sure.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 5, 2012, 03:54 pm

For the glorious madness that the Tommy Westphall (St. Elsewhere) hypothesis can lead to, check out these two sites:
https://thetommywestphall.wordpress.com/
http://www.poobala.com/crossoverlist.html
Although, inevitably, conundrums arise. Seinfeld's Kramer once guested on fellow sitcom Mad About You. Yet in a later episode of Seinfeld, George talks about how he hated the show Mad About You! One inventive explanation I've heard is that, since Paul Reiser's character on Mad About You is a documentary filmmaker, what George was actually referring to was a TV documentary series Paul made about his own married life. (Give that person a No-Prize!)
Another explanation is that there are two parallel universes, one in which both Seinfeld and Mad About You "really exist" and another in which only Seinfeld is real and Mad About You is, as in our universe, merely a TV sitcom. The sitcom creators in the 2nd universe are undoubtedly subconsciously channelling actual events from the 1st universe when they create their "fictional" sitcom episodes.

My own personal theory is that, since we know that ALL fictional stories occur somewhere in the Omniverse, the trick is figuring out where/how they connect. Sometimes you have to settle for a "weak" link (TV adverts, easter eggs) until something stronger comes along and the map can be readjusted accordingly.


Stuart V wrote:Jul 5, 2012, 05:40 pm

Zack Kinkead wrote:The really depends on how you define “real world”.


Absolutely, and why I said "most" rather than "all." Obviously series where massively world changing events occur are harder to work in, but if you stick just to those without such elements, then there's generally no real reason why (for example) E.R. can't share a reality with shows as diverse as Desperate Housewives, the West Wing, How I Met Your Mother, Law and Order or Miami Vice. That said, even in stories set in the "real" world you can find problematic continuity that would prevent it being one reality - the West Wing would have a hard time fitting with 24, due to conflicting versions of the incumbent US President in office at what was supposed to be the same time.

Zack Kinkead wrote:Eureka (which crossed over with Warehouse 13) was blatantly Sci-Fi from the beginning but you can do some hand waving and say that the fact that it’s a SECRET community means it could still be “real”. Then you have something like Family Matters – which started out fairly real – and went more and more Sci-Fi in later seasons.


And, as you note, SF and Fantasy elements don't preclude shows sharing a reality with "real world" shows that don't have such elements, so long as those SF or Fantasy elements are not something the general public would know about.

Zack Kinkead wrote:Also, I sort of feel like the things in most soap operas would be a bigger deal if they happened in the real world. A few years ago there was a local guy who tried to fake his own death and run off with some investor money; it made the national news. Stuff like that is an overused cliché in a soap opera.


Well, there's the real world and the "real" world of fiction, where nothing too impossible happens, but things are heightened, more dramatic, and "big" events happen more frequently than you'd expect.

Zack Kinkead wrote:Speaking of which, did you read the Star Trek/Legion crossover? I’m not sure if Easter Eggs really count but, if the villain’s trophy room is any indication, everything from Dr. Who to HG Wells’ Time Machine are part of the same multiverse.


Not yet, but I am aware of it, and yes, the Easter Eggs do count, albeit as weaker proof of connections. That scene does bring a fair few additional movies and shows into the confirmed multiverse. Also worth checking out is the Scarlet Traces: The Great Game, which includes a map of the Earth's solar system which shows inhabitants of the various planets, amongst whom can be recognised a Mercurian next to Mercury, Treen and Theron next to Venus (last three races all from Dan Dare), Sea Devil and Silurian next to Earth (both Dr. Who), the Watcher (Marvel) and Selenite (H.G. Well's First Men on the Moon) next to the Moon, Barsoomian (Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom novels) alongside a Pfifltrigg & Sorn & Hross (C.S. Lewis' Out of the Silent Planet) next to Mars, and a H.G. Wells Martian next to the unnamed fifth planet that was destroyed to become the asteroid belt.

zuckyd1 wrote:Although, inevitably, conundrums arise. Seinfeld's Kramer once guested on fellow sitcom Mad About You. Yet in a later episode of Seinfeld, George talks about how he hated the show Mad About You! One inventive explanation I've heard is that, since Paul Reiser's character on Mad About You is a documentary filmmaker, what George was actually referring to was a TV documentary series Paul made about his own married life. (Give that person a No-Prize!)


Another explanation is that there are two parallel universes, one in which both Seinfeld and Mad About You "really exist" and another in which only Seinfeld is real and Mad About You is, as in our universe, merely a TV sitcom. The sitcom creators in the 2nd universe are undoubtedly subconsciously channelling actual events from the 1st universe when they create their "fictional" sitcom episodes.

Both are valid options. Another is that, since we have evidence of realities shifting in and out of synch with one another (see Shattered Image for one such case), the two shared a reality for a while, then went out of synch, becoming fictional to one another.

zuckyd1 wrote:My own personal theory is that, since we know that ALL fictional stories occur somewhere in the Omniverse, the trick is figuring out where/how they connect. Sometimes you have to settle for a "weak" link (TV adverts, easter eggs) until something stronger comes along and the map can be readjusted accordingly


Absolutely. The mapping of the links, and the noting of the strength of the links, is for the purpose of proving this to the naysayers who try to claim otherwise. The hardest core naysayers don't count Easter Eggs, don't count references, and won't even count outright crossovers unless the happen in "real" comics and not one-shots or miniseries - these include those who insist there is a separate Marvel Omniverse. But to them I point out the example of Invincible meeting Spider-Man - it took place in a "real" Marvel series, and we saw the other part of the story in Invincible the same month, plus Invincible referenced his encounter with Spider-Man in a later issue of Invincible, albeit obliquely, when he encountered a villain with spider powers - upon seeing the villain's massive web and glimpsing his appearance (which was somewhat similar to Spidey's), Invincible calls out "Peter?"


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 5, 2012, 06:19 pm

Stuart V wrote:That said, even in stories set in the "real" world you can find problematic continuity that would prevent it being one reality - the West Wing would have a hard time fitting with 24, due to conflicting versions of the incumbent US President in office at what was supposed to be the same time.


It just so happens that in the latest issue of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (Century: 2009) Josiah Bartlet of The West Wing is succeeded as US President by David Palmer of 24!


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 5, 2012, 07:32 pm

Stuart, as long as you’re accepting “weak links”, you might be interested in the following: In the Twilight Avenger story “The Centipede Crawls”, a character refers to Philo Vance in a way that suggests he might really exist. Philo Vance appears in Lin Carter’s novel “The Earth-Shaker”, along with two Doc Savage characters (Patricia Savage and Johnny Littlejohn). Doc Savage, of course, has crossed over with characters from both the Marvel and DC universes.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 5, 2012, 08:26 pm

Zach Kinkead wrote:Speaking of which, did you read the Star Trek/Legion crossover? I’m not sure if Easter Eggs really count but, if the villain’s trophy room is any indication, everything from Dr. Who to HG Wells’ Time Machine are part of the same multiverse.


Any idea what the other trophies in this image are? I recognize a Stargate, a DeLorean, a Time Tunnel, the machine from Time After Time, a Hot Tub, and Bill & Ted's phonebooth.

startrek-legion.jpg


Zach Kinkead wrote:Jul 5, 2012, 11:35 pm

Zach Kinkead wrote:Any idea what the other trophies in this image are? I recognize a Stargate, a DeLorean, a Time Tunnel, the machine from Time After Time, a Hot Tub, and Bill & Ted's phonebooth.


I also recognize an old Legion Time Bubble (probably either belonging to a different incarnation of the Legion, Rip Hunter, or Booster Gold) and the Flash’s Cosmic Treadmill.

Some of the spaceships look familiar but I can’t place them.

(I’d like to think one of the smaller items on the pedestals is the Phoenix Gate from Gargoyles but there isn’t enough detail to know)


Stuart V wrote:Jul 6, 2012, 07:30 am

Starting at the top middle, there's the Time Tunnel from the TV show of the same name, then to the right of that is H.G. Wells' time machine from Time After Time, and to the right of that is the Time Traveller's time machine from the 1960 adaptation of H.G. Wells' Time Machine, and then to the right again is the time sled from Time Cop (movie and TV series).

Below the time sled is Doc Brown's DeLorean from Back to the Future. Angling left and diagonally up we have a Time Sphere (Rick Hunter, etc), and then left and up again is an Epoch class Federation timeship from Star Trek: Voyager.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Aeon
http://www.startrek.com/database_articl ... 1-00-00-00
Directly to the left of that and under Lightning Lad is something I am not sure of - it might be a badly drawn Guardian of Forever (but the rest of the art is spot on, so I doubt it) or else a piece of the Man-Thing's swamp / Nexus of Realities, or Professor Hyatt's Time Pool (can't find a decent visual reference to confirm). If it is anything else, then I'm stumped. Below the Epoch class vessel is a 26th century Time Pod, of the same design as seen in ST:TNG's A Matter of Time.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Time-pod

To the left of the Time Pod is Lazarus' spaceship from ST:TOS "The Alternative Factor"
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Lazarus%27_spaceship
Beneath that is the Stargate from the movie of the same name and various spin-off series.

Underneath Chameleon Boy is the hot tub from Hot Tub Time Machine. Below the hot tub is Flash's Cosmic Treadmill. On a plinth below that is the Prince of Persia's Dagger of Time
http://princeofpersia.wikia.com/wiki/Dagger_of_Time

To the left of the hot tub is the Master's TARDIS in the form of a sandstone Doric column, a disguise it wore for three stories
http://merchandise.thedoctorwhosite.co. ... th-doctor/
Below that is the Doctor's TARDIS in its traditional Police Call Box form, and below that is Bill and Ted's time-travelling phone booth.

On the top plinth to the left of the Time Pod (and wedged between the top two word balloons emanating from the inset panel) is the Atavachron from ST:TOS "All Our Yesterdays"
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Atavachron
and on the plinth below that is one of the Atavachron's data disks.
And on the final plinth is the Omni, a watch-like time travel device from Voyagers
http://www.forevergeek.com/wp-content/m ... 7/omni.jpg

I'm told that a Time Agent Vortex Manipulator, as worn by the likes of Captain Jack, River Song and Captain John Hart in Doctor Who and Torchwood, shows up too, but I can't see it in this picture.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 6, 2012, 08:58 am

Wow. Nicely done. Guess that's why Marvel pays you those big bucks. LOL


captainswift wrote:Jul 6, 2012, 09:23 am

The Seinfeld/Mad About You conundrum reminds me of the so-called "Hooterville Trilogy" of late 60s TV shows. It creates an odd shared universe situation in that:

1. Green Acres definitely shares a reality with Petticoat Junction. The regulars from Petticoat appeared frequently in the first season of Acres, and Sam Drucker was a regular on both shows simultaneously.

2. Beverly Hillbillies definitely shares a reality with Petticoat Junction. Several holiday episodes involved the Clampetts going to visit Junction, and Granny was notably smitten with Sam Drucker (which would lead one to conclude all three shows share a reality, since Sam was a regular on Acres, too. However...)

3. Beverly Hillbillies is definitely fictional on Green Acres. Eb mentions it as his favorite show several times, and once the town put on a "play" that was actually them acting out an episode of Hillbillies.

So, in conclusion... jokes are more important than continuity in Hooterville.


Stuart V wrote:Jul 6, 2012, 11:04 am

captainswift wrote:The Seinfeld/Mad About You conundrum reminds me of the so-called "Hooterville Trilogy" of late 60s TV shows. It creates an odd shared universe situation in that:

1. Green Acres definitely shares a reality with Petticoat Junction. The regulars from Petticoat appeared frequently in the first season of Acres, and Sam Drucker was a regular on both shows simultaneously.

2. Beverly Hillbillies definitely shares a reality with Petticoat Junction. Several holiday episodes involved the Clampetts going to visit Junction, and Granny was notably smitten with Sam Drucker (which would lead one to conclude all three shows share a reality, since Sam was a regular on Acres, too. However...)

3. Beverly Hillbillies is definitely fictional on Green Acres. Eb mentions it as his favorite show several times, and once the town put on a "play" that was actually them acting out an episode of Hillbillies.

So, in conclusion... jokes are more important than continuity in Hooterville.


Or else the Beverly Hillbillies was the first reality TV show, and that's what Eb watches. Or the Clampetts' real life rags-to-riches story provided the basis for a fictional series, just like, for example, we have TV series based (loosely) on the real world Untouchables.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Jul 6, 2012, 12:29 pm

Beverly Hillbillies is one of my favorite old TV shows. Don’t ruin it by retconning at as reality TV. :down:


Stuart V wrote:Jul 6, 2012, 12:48 pm

Zach Kinkead wrote:Beverly Hillbillies is one of my favorite old TV shows. Don’t ruin it by retconning at as reality TV. :down:


If reality TV shows followed around the likes of the Beverly Hillbillies and the Addams Family, instead of the "people" it tends to follow, then I'd be more inclined to watch it. Instead we get individuals who are just and bizarre and outrageous as the Clampetts or Addams, but without the charm or sense of humour.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 6, 2012, 01:04 pm

Since we know that shows like Mad About You and Beverly Hillbillies can be fictional in some realities but not in others—and, in some realities, might even be a form of reality TV—does that mean that OUR reality tv programs are, somewhere out there in the Omniverse, purely fictional? That a show such as Survivor might be no more real than Gilligan's Island or Castaway? (And in some realities, perhaps even LESS real?)


Stuart V wrote:Jul 6, 2012, 01:18 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:Since we know that shows like Mad About You and Beverly Hillbillies can be fictional in some realities but not in others—and, in some realities, might even be a form of reality TV—does that mean that OUR reality tv programs are, somewhere out there in the Omniverse, purely fictional? That a show such as Survivor might be no more real than Gilligan's Island or Castaway? (And in some realities, perhaps even LESS real?)


I guess it would depend on the specific type of reality TV show. Ones like Big Brother or Survivor are already presented in the context of being a TV show. However, shows like Dog the Bounty Hunter or The Osbornes? I could see them being fictionalised as an action series or a sitcom respectively.

That said, my comment about Beverly Hillbillies is slightly misconstrued - I meant that the shows we saw were real events in the world of Green Acres, but that when Eb later mentions it as a TV show, he's referring to later events in the Clampett life we didn't see, where they had a camera crew follow them around. Much like the Cops-style episode of X-Files.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 6, 2012, 01:41 pm

By the way, Stuart, you never commented on my Twilight Avenger post. Is that something you can use?


Zach Kinkead wrote:Jul 6, 2012, 02:22 pm

On the real vs fiction thing …

DC characters are fictional in the Marvel Universe.

Marvel characters are fictional in the DC Universe.

They’ve crossed over before many times both as part of the same world and as a meeting of alternate realities. I don’t think I’ve ever seen Spider-Man recognize Batman as a fiction character in any of those even though he’s mentioned watching Batman movies.

Invincible has crossed over with both universes (of course the DC thing was only one panel).

Also worth mentioning is that – within the MU and DCU – there are comics published with fictional stories about in-universe characters like the Justice League and the Fantastic Four.

That might go a long way toward explaining how the Lee/Kirby monsters can be both fictional (Peter Parker used to read them as a kid and Reed Richards used them as a bluff to repel and alien invasion) and part of Mole Man’s army.

Back to TV …

The Office is supposed to be reality TV but I get the sense that no one (including the main characters) actually watches the show. Are they waiting until the series is over to air it in-universe or something? It seems like they’ve shot an awful lot of footage (especially in the American version) that no one has seen.


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 6, 2012, 02:26 pm

How did I miss the Star Trek / Legion of Super-Heroes mini-series?!

Off to my LCS tomorrow :curse:


Zach Kinkead wrote:Jul 6, 2012, 02:38 pm

Michael Regan wrote:How did I miss the Star Trek / Legion of Super-Heroes mini-series?!

Off to my LCS tomorrow :curse:


It’s pretty good. It’s almost as fun to watch Brainiac and Spock play off each other as it is to see what happens when Kirk hits on Shadow Lass.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 6, 2012, 02:55 pm

Zach Kinkead wrote:DC characters are fictional in the Marvel Universe.


Superman may be fictional in 616, but "Clark Kent" apparently isn't: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/kentclrk.htm

Zach Kinkead wrote:The Office is supposed to be reality TV but I get the sense that no one (including the main characters) actually watches the show. Are they waiting until the series is over to air it in-universe or something? It seems like they’ve shot an awful lot of footage (especially in the American version) that no one has seen.


This relates to part of what I was suggesting in an earlier post—that in some universe The Office might be the "real" reality show and Survivor or the Osbournes might be the fake one.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Jul 6, 2012, 03:14 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:Superman may be fictional in 616, but "Clark Kent" apparently isn't: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/kentclrk.htm


On that note: Peter Parker was in Crisis on Infinite Earths and recently rode the same subway train as Matt Murdock and James Howlett in the Doctor 13 stories. Maybe they were commuting to the Avengers Tower or something.


Stuart V wrote:Jul 8, 2012, 11:41 am

zuckyd1 wrote:By the way, Stuart, you never commented on my Twilight Avenger post. Is that something you can use?


I did comment on it, though it was hidden in the middle of a larger post. Yes, it is useful. Here's what I said in full "I'd not counted Gold Digger since that and NHS kind of share a reality. On the other hand, I'd overlooked Speed Racer - so the question now is, have either Gold Digger or Speed Racer crossed with any other series?"

Zach Kinkead wrote:On the real vs fiction thing …

DC characters are fictional in the Marvel Universe.

Marvel characters are fictional in the DC Universe.


And, notably, Marvel is fictional in the New Universe, something Quasar discovered when he visited there, while DC Comics exist in the Milestone universe, resulting in comments along the lines of "but you're fictional" when DC heroes crossed into that universe. So, even without the examples of the Incompleat Enchanter or Kitty's Fairytale, we've got evidence that events in one reality may be accurately recorded as fictional stories in another.

Zach Kinkead wrote:They’ve crossed over before many times both as part of the same world and as a meeting of alternate realities. I don’t think I’ve ever seen Spider-Man recognize Batman as a fiction character in any of those even though he’s mentioned watching Batman movies.


Two possibilities: 1) some interdimensional crossovers, and most interdimensional mergers, mess with history and / or memories, so it might be that for the duration of their encounter Spider-Man didn't recognise Batman as fictional because the Batman movies were temporarily erased from 616 history; 2) the 616 Batman movies are not based on DC's Batman, but on another character of the same name, and thus, though Bruce Wayne's alter ego shares the codename, he didn't look remotely like the movie character Spidey knew of, hence Spidey's lake of comment.

Zach Kinkead wrote:Also worth mentioning is that – within the MU and DCU – there are comics published with fictional stories about in-universe characters like the Justice League and the Fantastic Four.

That might go a long way toward explaining how the Lee/Kirby monsters can be both fictional (Peter Parker used to read them as a kid and Reed Richards used them as a bluff to repel and alien invasion) and part of Mole Man’s army.


Pretty much a given.

Zach Kinkead wrote:Back to TV …

The Office is supposed to be reality TV but I get the sense that no one (including the main characters) actually watches the show. Are they waiting until the series is over to air it in-universe or something? It seems like they’ve shot an awful lot of footage (especially in the American version) that no one has see


n.
It might be that they are waiting to air it. On the other hand, look at how reality TV shows in real life sometimes present their "stars", or even just shows like Jerry Springer. Given how most people on such shows come across in a very poor light, you'd think the people in ongoing shows and anyone new who was about to appear on such a show would either modify their behaviour or refuse to continue appearing. But they don't. Some people don't seem to mind being depicted as jerks or idiots, so long as they believe they are becoming "famous" in the process.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 8, 2012, 10:35 pm

Stuart V wrote:I did comment on it, though it was hidden in the middle of a larger post. Yes, it is useful. Here's what I said in full "I'd not counted Gold Digger since that and NHS kind of share a reality. On the other hand, I'd overlooked Speed Racer - so the question now is, have either Gold Digger or Speed Racer crossed with any other series?"


I had also posted a second time about the Twilight Avenger:
As long as you’re accepting “weak links”, you might be interested in the following: In the Twilight Avenger story “The Centipede Crawls”, a character refers to Philo Vance in a way that suggests he might really exist. Philo Vance appears in Lin Carter’s novel “The Earth-Shaker”, along with two Doc Savage characters (Patricia Savage and Johnny Littlejohn). Doc Savage, of course, has crossed over with characters from both the Marvel and DC universes.


ToddCam wrote:Jul 9, 2012, 12:50 pm

The Office reality show:

In the last episode with Michael Scott, he told the camera people to let him know if they ever aired it. So at least as of then it hadn't aired.

In the British version, it aired between the end of the series and the special.

Also, if it had aired, there would have to have been somebody in the show at some point having recognized one of the people from the show. I mean, a show being filmed entirely on location in Scranton (not exactly a bustling metropolis) and no one at all knowing about it?

If they ever do air that show in the show, at least one character (Pam) committed fraud (gleefully admitting it too calling herself "corrupt") in giving someone paid time off. Not to mention all the lies that would be revealed to be just that if the lie-ees ever saw it.


Stuart V wrote:Jul 9, 2012, 02:16 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:I had also posted a second time about the Twilight Avenger:
As long as you’re accepting “weak links”, you might be interested in the following: In the Twilight Avenger story “The Centipede Crawls”, a character refers to Philo Vance in a way that suggests he might really exist. Philo Vance appears in Lin Carter’s novel “The Earth-Shaker”, along with two Doc Savage characters (Patricia Savage and Johnny Littlejohn). Doc Savage, of course, has crossed over with characters from both the Marvel and DC universes.


Ah, you are right, I missed that one. A passing mention would count as a particularly weak link, but in the absence of any stronger ones it is certainly noteworthy.

In other news, I notice a Glee / Archie crossover comic is coming. Since Archie has also met the Punisher, I personally now want to see a Glee / Punisher crossover.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 9, 2012, 04:27 pm

Stuart V wrote:I don't think any Logan's Run world has been visited by anyone from an alternate reality, or vice versa.


Logan's Run easter eggs in Star Trek:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/incon ... .htm#matte


Stuart V wrote:Jul 10, 2012, 08:06 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:Logan's Run easter eggs in Star Trek:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/incon ... .htm#matte


I don't think we can count shared architecture.

One which might not mean a lot to the non-Brits, and not evidence towards the Omniverse, but rather of a shared reality. Blake's 7 and Doctor Who share a universe. Right back when Blake's 7 was airing, Terry Nation, creator of both Blake's 7 and the Daleks, had wanted to use the Daleks in the series (an alien force invades at the end of the second year, and Nation had intended them to be the Daleks), but producer David Maloney and script editor Chris Boucher overruled this. Tom Baker (the Doctor) and Gareth Thomas (Blake), who were friends and the lead character in each show at the time, also proposed that one or other of them should cameo in character in the other show, with Blake and the Doctor walking past one another in a corridor with little more than a nod of acknowledgement was also nixed. However, these ideas long lodged the possibility in fans' minds that the shows shared a universe. Some of the Doctor Who novels then ran with this, with companions of the Doctor both mentioning having seen Blake's 7 as a TV show, and then having one companion mention she'd met a member of Blake's 7, clarifying her statement by adding "the terrorist group, not the TV show." Big Finish, producers of licensed Dr. Who audio stories, also used some of the very distinctive Blake's 7 sound effects in one of their audios, set around the same sort of time period as Blake's 7 was.

After hinting and making tongue-in-cheek references to Blake's 7, the link was firmly established when Chris Boucher used Carnell, a "psycho-strategist" who had been created for a B7 episode Boucher penned, in his Dr. Who spin-off series, Kaldor City, set on a former Earth colony that has lost contact with the wider universe, and which only recalls Earth as a legend. Carnell appeared alongside characters who had met the Doctor in the story Robots of Death, and another character, played by Paul Darrow (Avon in Blake's 7) confronts Carnell over being the only psycho-strategist on the planet, proof that Carnell is not native to the world. Carnell counters that Darrow's character can only know this if he comes from the Federation too, and Darrow admits that he too is a fugitive, on the planet hiding out from the Federation.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 10, 2012, 10:34 pm

Stuart V wrote:I don't think we can count shared architecture.


But both buildings were OBVIOUSLY built by the same interplanetary architectural firm. :)
I thought it might count as a legit egg since it's a fictional building and was reused deliberately as a nod to Logan's Run—is that really so different from the easter eggs in the Star Trek/Legion comic?

Speaking of Doctor Who crossovers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnsqfbF9mbY


Stuart V wrote:Jul 11, 2012, 05:08 am

zuckyd1 wrote:But both buildings were OBVIOUSLY built by the same interplanetary architectural firm. :)
I thought it might count as a legit egg since it's a fictional building and was reused deliberately as a nod to Logan's Run—is that really so different from the easter eggs in the Star Trek/Legion comic?

Speaking of Doctor Who crossovers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnsqfbF9mbY


It's not a fictional building in the same place, nor even on the same planet. As such, while they are deliberate Easter Eggs, they aren't intended to be the same building within the confines of the stories themselves, just remarkably similar looking constructs. Conversely, the gadgets in the Star Trek / Legion comic could legitimately be argued to be the "real deal" and have travelled from their original universes to be collected together.


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 11, 2012, 08:44 am

The same can be said for numerous props and costumes reused over the years for either budgetary reasons or simply due to original interest. Take a look at how many times the oscillation overthruster from The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the 8th Dimension was used in the Star Trek franchise over the years (http://www.figmentfly.com/bb/popculture3.html).

Certainly a good trivia site, but the appearance of a building in both realities in an in-universe context can only be taken as a building which looks like another building. There is no indication that one is meant to represent the other in any respect unlike the implication in the Star Trek / Legion of Super-Heroes cross-over.


Stuart V wrote:Jul 11, 2012, 08:58 am

Michael Regan wrote:The same can be said for numerous props and costumes reused over the years for either budgetary reasons or simply due to original interest. Take a look at how many times the oscillation overthruster from The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the 8th Dimension was used in the Star Trek franchise over the years (http://www.figmentfly.com/bb/popculture3.html).

Certainly a good trivia site, but the appearance of a building in both realities in an in-universe context can only be taken as a building which looks like another building. There is no indication that one is meant to represent the other in any respect unlike the implication in the Star Trek / Legion of Super-Heroes cross-over.


There's also a lot of costumes and props which got reused between various BBC SF shows, thanks to them sharing the same props and costume departments. Heck, part of a spaceship corridor used in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy also turned up in Alien, iirc.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 11, 2012, 11:59 am
I see the distinction you're making, and it's a valid one.

But here's another line of reasoning:
Just as writers, daydreamers, etc. are subconsciously channeling alternate realities, perhaps the architect within the Star Trek universe was subconsciusly inspired by design ideas originating from the Logan's Run reality?


Stuart V wrote:Jul 11, 2012, 12:08 pm

zuckyd` wrote:I see the distinction you're making, and it's a valid one.

But here's another line of reasoning:
Just as writers, daydreamers, etc. are subconsciously channeling alternate realities, perhaps the architect within the Star Trek universe was subconsciusly inspired by design ideas originating from the Logan's Run reality?


Feasible, certainly, but speculative, and as such too weak a link to use on the map. The reason we allow fiction or daydreams of a character in one world to be used as evidence of the existence of that fiction / daydream as a genuine reality is because we have multiple examples of this being the case. But architecture is harder - we've got pyramids all over the Earth, but, despite some people claiming this is evidence of past civilisations having unrecorded contact with one another (or, more dubiously, claims this is evidence that aliens came down in different parts of the Earth and taught different cultures to make pyramids), the truth seems to be simply that certain architectural designs just make sense - they are strong and durable, so multiple cultures discovered them independently and those structures have survived longer than others.


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 11, 2012, 12:30 pm

Stuart V wrote:There's also a lot of costumes and props which got reused between various BBC SF shows, thanks to them sharing the same props and costume departments. Heck, part of a spaceship corridor used in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy also turned up in Alien, iirc.


Not to mention Robbie the Robot which was such a great prop it could not simply be put in a back room to collect dust.

Fun really begins when things are reused in animation, simply to save some time. I think Disney did this in some older, pre-Little Mermaid movies.

An extention of this, take is as you may, are the cross-referenced items in many Pixar films: Pizza Planet, Buy'n Large, etc.

(All of which are fantastic bits of trivia which I treasure and would go mad if I tried to document... but make note of in any case.)

I like the subconscious reasoning (Earth-One and Earth-Two in the pre-Crisis DC Multiverse), but the problem is where to stop. The design of the American flag in multiple realities, the existence of MacDonald's in multiple realities, even the existence of a simple chair in multiple realities could then warrant a connection.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 11, 2012, 03:07 pm

Michael Regan wrote:the problem is where to stop. The design of the American flag in multiple realities, the existence of MacDonald's in multiple realities, even the existence of a simple chair in multiple realities could then warrant a connection.


I'd argue that the evidence is SLIGHTLY stronger when we're dealing with two fictional building designs as opposed to two McDonalds.

Another explanation for the Logan's Run/Star Trek "connection": some architect in the 23rd/24th century watched the same Logan's Run movie that we've watched and dug the film's set design.

A related question: We know that all fictional realities exist in the "same" Omniverse (because, by definition, there is only one). Does it follow that a given reality must share some connection with at least one other fictional reality, even if we are currently unaware of the precise linking factor because it has yet to be sufficiently "documented"? Or can a fictional reality truly be completely isolated, drifting around aimlessly in the vast oceans of the Omniverse?
(Obviously all fictional realities are linked to OUR reality by virtue of the fact that our authors have been able to "discover" them.)


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 11, 2012, 03:16 pm

Perhaps I should state the question another way:
A given reality cannot be TOTALLY isolated, assuming its inhabitants have the intellectual capacity to create fiction. So my new question is, can a reality, or "cluster" of realities, be completely disconnected from the "main" cluster that is illustrated on the Omniverse Map?


Stuart V wrote:Jul 11, 2012, 03:27 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:I'd argue that the evidence is SLIGHTLY stronger when we're dealing with two fictional building designs as opposed to two McDonalds.

Another explanation for the Logan's Run/Star Trek "connection": some architect in the 23rd/24th century watched the same Logan's Run movie that we've watched and dug the film's set design.

A related question: We know that all fictional realities exist in the "same" Omniverse (because, by definition, there is only one). Does it follow that a given reality must share some connection with at least one other fictional reality, even if we are currently unaware of the precise linking factor because it has yet to be sufficiently "documented"? Or can a fictional reality truly be completely isolated, drifting around aimlessly in the vast oceans of the Omniverse?
(Obviously all fictional realities are linked to OUR reality by virtue of the fact that our authors have been able to "discover" them.)

zuckyd1 wrote:Perhaps I should state the question another way:
A given reality cannot be TOTALLY isolated, assuming its inhabitants have the intellectual capacity to create fiction. So my new question is, can a reality, or "cluster" of realities, be completely disconnected from the "main" cluster that is illustrated on the Omniverse Map?


I suppose that theoretically somewhere could be totally isolated from other realities - not everywhere has to have developed fiction. If we take it that all fiction is generated by someone effectively psychically viewing somewhere else, then the realities they view can't be isolated, since telepathic viewing suggests astral plane contact between those realities - but then, there's no reason to believe all fiction comes from viewing other realities. It could instead be viewing other places or times within your own reality. Presumably however, any world whose fiction conceives of alternate realities, even in as simple a manner as creating fictional characters operating in the real world, must have some contact with other realities, even if only through the psychic planes. And yes, you could also have isolated reality "clusters".


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 11, 2012, 03:32 pm

Stuart V wrote:And yes, you could also have isolated reality "clusters".


I guess that's what fan fiction is for. LOL


Stuart V wrote:Jul 13, 2012, 05:52 pm

Just noting that Dynamite's upcoming Masks series is a crossover story featuring the Green Hornet, Kato, the Shadow, the Spider, Zorro (presumably a modern day successor, as the original comes from a different time period than the 1930s), the Black Bat, Miss Fury, the Green Lama and the Black Terror.
http://www.comicvine.com/masks/4050-54311/
Unsurprisingly, given that once someone goes public domain anyone can use them, many of those already have links to the multiverse. However, they aren't all public domain, and this is very nearly the Spider's first crossover.

The original Black Terror met other characters in the Standard/Better/Nedor universe, the Eclipse version participated in the Total Eclipse crossover alongside a wide variety of other heroes, another version exists in the Tom Strong universe, another counterpart is part of Project Superpowers, and yet another exists in the Americomics universe.

Green Hornet and Kato have met Batman (via the latter's TV show), Captain Action (via Moonstone's use of him), and, in a sneaky, can sadly only be counted as a weak link, way, ran into Captain America, the Shadow, Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Lois Lane and Clark Kent in Now's Sting of the Green Hornet.

The Shadow has met Doc Savage (DC and Dark Horse) and Dark Horse's Ghost (another link to the multiverse for Comics' Greatest World).

Zorro has fewer links, but he's encountered Dracula and the Lone Ranger (the latter via Dynamite's comics again).

The Black Bat has fewer crossovers, largely because he's very much a lesser known Pulp hero, so even though he's been public domain for a while, few people thought to use him. However, Moonstone started taking advantage of all the unused pulp characters a few years ago, and Black Bat turns up in Return of the Originals, alongside Domino Lady, G8, Secret Agent X and the Phantom Detective. The Spider is in this story, but only in a separate tale available in the hardcover addition - and I think this is his very first crossover.

Miss Fury has a counterpart in the Marvel Universe - we saw her in the first pages of The Twelve. And the Green Lama also exists in Project Superpowers, Americomics, and made a cameo in Avengers #92 as one of the Golden Age heroes Rick Jones knew of - though whether he was only a comic book character Rick had read of, or a real person in 616, we can't say for certain.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 14, 2012, 01:35 am

Stuart V wrote:Zorro (presumably a modern day successor, as the original comes from a different time period than the 1930s)


Writer Chris Roberson confirmed in an interview with Comic Book Resources that it will not be Don Diego de la Vega.

Stuart V wrote:The Spider is in this story, but only in a separate tale available in the hardcover addition - and I think this is his very first crossover.


Lin Carter's second Prince Zarkon novel, Invisible Death, features the Spider, the Shadow, the Green Hornet, Batman, and others.

Philip José Farmer’s Greatheart Silver includes analogues of the Spider, the Shadow, the Black Bat, the Green Lama, the Phantom Detective, G-8, Secret Agent X, Doc Savage, the Lone Ranger, Fu Manchu, James Bond, and others.


Stuart V wrote:Jul 14, 2012, 06:12 am

zuckyd1 wrote:Lin Carter's second Prince Zarkon novel, Invisible Death, features the Spider, the Shadow, the Green Hornet, Batman, and others.

Philip José Farmer’s Greatheart Silver includes analogues of the Spider, the Shadow, the Black Bat, the Green Lama, the Phantom Detective, G-8, Secret Agent X, Doc Savage, the Lone Ranger, Fu Manchu, James Bond, and others.


In Zarkon's case, I believe those are "nod and wink" versions, rather than outright acknowledged, simply because most of them were still in copyright at the time Lin Carter was writing (but I've not read the stories, so I could be wrong - if I am, then yes, this might be his first crossover). On the analogue front, that wouldn't change my comment - there's a Spider analogue in Planetary, but he's not the Spider.

It looks to me very much like crossovers come in distinct waves: first analogues, when characters become popular enough for others to either want to parody them or include homages to them; then, official, licensed crossovers; and finally, once into the public domain, widespread mash-ups as fans take advantage of the free rein to have their favourite characters meet one another. The analogues tend to overlap the licensed crossovers, but, apart from those analogues who prove enduring and/or distinctive enough to take on a life of their own, they usually dwindle away once the public domain phase arrives, because why use a pastiche of someone when you can use the actual character?


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 14, 2012, 05:55 pm

I haven't read the Carter or Farmer stories; I'm going by the information in Win Scott Eckert's two-volume series Crossovers: A Secret Chronology of the World. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the term "analogue". Eckert's description of Invisible Death gives no indication that the Spider is referred to by any different name. Spider supporting characters Nita Van Sloan and Ram Singh are apparently also mentioned.
Regarding Greatheart Silver, the Spider is referred to as "Dick Windworthy/The Arachnid", and all the other guest characters have equally-transparent pseudonyms (Fyu-men Chu, the Green Llama, etc.).
Additionally, the family tree that was published in Farmer's Doc Savage: His Apocalyptic Life indicates that the Spider is the half-brother of the Shadow and G-8 (although presumably there is no basis for this relationship other than Farmer's imagination).

Is the Devil Doctor in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen considered to be an actual appearance of Fu Manchu, or merely an analogue?


Stuart V wrote:Jul 14, 2012, 07:18 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:I haven't read the Carter or Farmer stories; I'm going by the information in Win Scott Eckert's two-volume series Crossovers: A Secret Chronology of the World. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the term "analogue". Eckert's description of Invisible Death gives no indication that the Spider is referred to by any different name. Spider supporting characters Nita Van Sloan and Ram Singh are apparently also mentioned.


It's possible the novel does name them - you tend to get away more with a novel if it is only a passing mention - but it was published when the Spider was very much in copyright, so until we get confirmation one way or another as to exactly what is said to identify him, I think the jury has to remain out.

zuckyd1 wrote:Regarding Greatheart Silver, the Spider is referred to as "Dick Windworthy/The Arachnid", and all the other guest characters have equally-transparent pseudonyms (Fyu-men Chu, the Green Llama, etc.).


Analogues, nevertheless. Analogues can't really be taken as evidence of multiversal linkage because (1) the multiversal naysayers are stubborn enough about acknowledging unquestioned crossovers without trying to use analogues in the debate, and (2) because analogues can and have developed lives of their own, becoming distinct characters in their own right.

zuckyd1 wrote:Additionally, the family tree that was published in Farmer's Doc Savage: His Apocalyptic Life indicates that the Spider is the half-brother of the Shadow and G-8 (although presumably there is no basis for this relationship other than Farmer's imagination).


I love the Wold Newton concept, but in terms of mapping the multiverse we can't use too much of it - we know that the depicted realities that some individuals live in is incompatible with the depicted realities of some others, so we can't make an argument for fitting them all together.

zuckyd1 wrote:Is the Devil Doctor in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen considered to be an actual appearance of Fu Manchu, or merely an analogue?


Kind of a grey area in between - ironically, because he went unnamed, he's got more claim to being a counterpart than he otherwise would, simply because it wasn't stated that he was not Fu Manchu. Of course, had Fu Manchu's owners tried to pursue a lawsuit for the unlicensed use of their character, it would have been easy to say "no, that's not Fu Manchu, it might be Wu Fang (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/w/wufang.htm) / Yen Sin (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/y/yensin.htm) / the Yellow Claw."


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 14, 2012, 07:45 pm

Stuart V wrote:I love the Wold Newton concept, but in terms of mapping the multiverse we can't use too much of it - we know that the depicted realities that some individuals live in is incompatible with the depicted realities of some others, so we can't make an argument for fitting them all together.


The way I understand the Wold Newton Universe is that its proponents have tried to carefully construct a single coherent reality that includes as many crossovers as possible, and they've relegated the non-compatible ones to alternate universes. (There's a whole appendix of these alternate realities in the Crossovers books.) So I would argue then that there IS a WNU which legitimately exists in the Omniverse, and that in that universe it has been documented that the Spider is stepbrother to the Shadow and G-8.


Stuart V wrote:Jul 14, 2012, 07:48 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:The way I understand the Wold Newton Universe is that its proponents have tried to carefully construct a single coherent reality that includes as many crossovers as possible, and they've relegated the non-compatible ones to alternate universes. (There's a whole appendix of these alternate realities in the Crossovers books.) So I would argue then that there IS a WNU which legitimately exists in the Omniverse, and that in that universe it has been documented that the Spider is stepbrother to the Shadow and G-8.


And that's perfectly reasonable.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Jul 14, 2012, 08:16 pm

The comment made a while back about universes being created by daydreams got me thinking about Joe the Barbarian.

While he seems to live in “the real world”, Joe hallucinates – among other things – that his DC, GI Joe, Masters of the Universe, and Transformers toys are real.

That seems relevant here.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 14, 2012, 08:39 pm

Wondering where this fan-film might fall on the Omniverse map: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REGCV6z3VkM


Stuart V wrote:Jul 15, 2012, 01:49 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:Wondering where this fan-film might fall on the Omniverse map: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REGCV6z3VkM


That's a great video - very well made! That said, I tend to avoid fan fic and fan videos as evidence of links, simply because otherwise pretty much everything would be immediately linked (and because the naysayers wouldn't count them anyway).

On the video front, I still retain a fondness for this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35vT-xWMkBU
which I first saw back around 2000. Not as smooth as the one you linked to, but given how the technology has advanced, as a fan video the old one was pretty groundbreaking for its time, and it got the person who made it his break into the movies:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1209376/


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 15, 2012, 04:20 pm

Stuart V wrote:I tend to avoid fan fic and fan videos as evidence of links, simply because otherwise pretty much everything would be immediately linked.


I agree—takes all the fun out of trying to "connect the dots".


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 15, 2012, 04:25 pm

Although, when it comes to public-domain characters, where do you draw the line between fan fiction and "legitimate" fiction?


Eduardo M. wrote:Jul 15, 2012, 05:07 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:Although, when it comes to public-domain characters, where do you draw the line between fan fiction and "legitimate" fiction?


I guess it comes down to whether said characters are being written by a professional writer in a professional setting.

Ex: If I were to write a story using publuc-domain characters and post on y Facebook it would be fan-fiction. If Dan Slott were to do so for a Marvel Comic its legitimate


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 15, 2012, 06:25 pm

Looks like it's time for another Earth designation (Earth-PF?):
http://www.wired.com/2012/07/disney-mar ... crossover/


Stuart V wrote:Jul 15, 2012, 07:24 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:Although, when it comes to public-domain characters, where do you draw the line between fan fiction and "legitimate" fiction?


Eduardo M. wrote:I guess it comes down to whether said characters are being written by a professional writer in a professional setting.

Ex: If I were to write a story using publuc-domain characters and post on y Facebook it would be fan-fiction. If Dan Slott were to do so for a Marvel Comic its legitimate


Pretty much. It used to be fairly easy to tell, in the days before the internet and cheap(ish) self-publishing companies, what was fan fiction and what wasn't. In the old days, while being a published author didn't guarantee you were a good writer, it at least meant someone other than you liked your work enough to risk paying out good money to cover the printing and distribution costs, which winnowed out at least some of the worst efforts. Now that safety net has been removed. Someone once pointed out to me that the old adage "Every person has a book in them" should be amended to add "but the internet has shown that most people should keep it there." There is some great fan fic out there, but there's an awful lot of dross too.

zuckyd1 wrote:Looks like it's time for another Earth designation (Earth-PF?):
http://www.wired.com/2012/07/disney-mar ... crossover/


Yup.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Jul 15, 2012, 08:52 pm

Eduardo M. wrote:I guess it comes down to whether said characters are being written by a professional writer in a professional setting.


I’m not sure how you’d define “professional” (especially when it comes to writers).

Harry Potter was written by a homeless person. If I were to gather the greats of literature together in one room, chances are pretty good that it is because I wanted to hold an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting. Then there are the big name comic writers who have infamously bad spelling and grammar.

I’d say you have to let the work speak for itself but it all comes down to personal preference. You either have to count everything or nothing once you get past the original owners of a character.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 15, 2012, 09:37 pm

Zack Kinkead wrote:I’m not sure how you’d define “professional” (especially when it comes to writers).

Harry Potter was written by a homeless person. If I were to gather the greats of literature together in one room, chances are pretty good that it is because I wanted to hold an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting. Then there are the big name comic writers who have infamously bad spelling and grammar.

I’d say you have to let the work speak for itself but it all comes down to personal preference. You either have to count everything or nothing once you get past the original owners of a character.


Rowling was poor, but I don't believe she was actually ever homeless.

Regardless, I think professionalism is defined, not by one's living conditions or sobriety (or even grammatical skills), but rather by whether one has earned compensation for the work he/she created.

That being said, I don't know that "professionalism" in the commercial sense need be an ABSOLUTE arbitrator in terms of what counts as "legitimate" for our purposes. There are plenty of examples of writers and artists who never achieved professional status while they were still alive. As Stuart said, there are amateurs out there whose skills and output outrank many of the pros. There are people who are content, especially in this age of free and instant global access, to create work without the expectation of financial reward. Some of these amateurs may even develop more of a following (and, eventually, influence) than some obscure "pro" who happened to have convinced someone to fork over some money.

Nevertheless, professionalism as defined above is certainly the easiest way to objectively determine legitimacy, without having to resort simply to matters of personal taste.


Stuart V wrote:Jul 16, 2012, 07:55 pm

Of course, there are fan films and then there are "fan films."
https://youtu.be/bWpK0wsnitc
Warning - it gets pretty violent.


Eduardo M. wrote:Jul 16, 2012, 08:32 pm

I will admit I've seen some fan works I would not mind being considered legitimate.

But also, I don't think I want to see a universe where the Juggernaut goes around telling people "I'm the Juggernaut, (w)itch!" (and YES, I am well aware they did that joke in Last Stand.)


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 18, 2012, 07:26 pm

The Weyland-Yutani Corporation logo from the Alien franchise can be seen at the top of the heads up display on the anti-aircraft gun Mal uses in "Serenity", the pilot episode of Firefly.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 18, 2012, 07:47 pm

Michael Regan wrote:The Weyland-Yutani Corporation logo from the Alien franchise can be seen at the top of the heads up display on the anti-aircraft gun Mal uses in "Serenity", the pilot episode of Firefly.


Joss Whedon, the creator of Firefly, wrote the screenplay for Alien Ressurection.

A few other appearances: http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Weyland-Yutani#Note


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 19, 2012, 09:09 am

zuckyd1 wrote:Joss Whedon, the creator of Firefly, wrote the screenplay for Alien Ressurection.

A few other appearances: http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Weyland-Yutani#Note


Angel and V... interesting.


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 19, 2012, 12:24 pm

Stuart,

When looking at certain publisher lines which are unique to the publisher (non-licensed), such at the super hero comics of Charlton and Dell, would it be best to assume seperate realities/continuities or shared realities/continuities (assuming, of course, no such link is evident in the published issues)?


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 23, 2012, 06:56 pm

"Run, Layla, Run" in X-Factor #240 includes an analog of Lola from Run, Lola, Run (1998)


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 23, 2012, 07:10 pm

Power Pack #60 had analogs of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 29, 2012, 04:20 pm

My nomination for Earth-199999.9 http://memosfromfury.tumblr.com/tagged/nick-fury


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 29, 2012, 08:02 pm

An analog of the Brady Bunch appears as a television show on Monk.


Michael Regan wrote: Jul 30, 2012, 08:43 am

What appears to be an analog of Judge Dredd appears as a teaser on the last page of Dark Avengers #177.


Sidney Osinga wrote:Aug 1, 2012, 02:20 am

I don't know if anyone has pointed this http://www.cracked.com/article_19323_6- ... -ways.html out yet, but here it is.


Michael Regan wrote:Aug 1, 2012, 09:22 am

Fringe season 2, episode one ("A New Day in the Old Town"), makes a mentions an "an old 'X' designation" of the FBI suggesting an X-Files analog withinin the Fringe reality.

Strangely, a scene from the X-Files season six episode "Dreamland" can briefly be seen on a television a the beginning of the episode indicating that the X-Files television series is also a fictional reality withinin the Fringe reality.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Aug 2, 2012, 06:53 pm

Sidney Osinga wrote:I don't know if anyone has pointed this http://www.cracked.com/article_19323_6- ... -ways.html out yet, but here it is.


I didn’t know about the Tarantino thing but I know most (maybe all) of Kevin Smith’s movies are in the same universe.

The Id software one got me thinking about video game universes; specifically Kingdom Hearts.

For those that don’t know KH is a game series that combines Final Fantasy and Disney.

Now I’m not sure which Final Fantasy; I’m no expert on the series but I read that most of the games exist in their own universe.

However it’s the Disney part that interests me. I know the game universe includes Mickey and his pals as well as the Disney versions of characters like Hercules. Theoretically Kingdom Hearts could include everything from Muppets to Marvel* to Miramax (probably not but it would tie it to the Smith and Tarantino universes).

*I want a crossover between Darkwing Duck and Spider-Man so badly.

Also my first exposure to the series is in the most recent game for 3DS. I’ve barely played the game but I’ve already seen an appearance by a character from one of my all-time favorite video games; the World Ends With You.

And we’d be here a while if we went into the connections between the various “core” Nintendo properties that existed even BEFORE Smash Bros.

The DD/TMNT one just reminds me of the Hulkpool story from Hulked Out Heroes where Wade has a hand in preventing just about everyone’s origin.




Michael Regan wrote:Aug 3, 2012, 06:37 pm

The odd thing about the Final Fantasy series is that each game release is technically a new reality... for the most part.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Aug 5, 2012, 05:08 pm

Speaking of Video game multiverses; have you seen the trailer for the Wreck-It Ralph movie?

Ralph, King Bowser, the Pac-Man ghosts, and several others are all part of the same villain support group


Stuart V wrote:Aug 6, 2012, 07:08 am

Michael Regan wrote:What appears to be an analog of Judge Dredd appears as a teaser on the last page of Dark Avengers #177.


Analogues can be tricky things, which is one of the reasons for counting them as looser proof of multiversal connections - some are stronger analogues than others. We've already kind of got Dredd analogues in Marvel via Justice Peace and the Justicer Bull (and their ilk), but how far you can hypothesis a connection via people of similar appearance and attitude who otherwise don't match up is hard to say. Still noteworthy though, especially in cases where stronger links aren't available.

Michael Regan wrote:Fringe season 2, episode one ("A New Day in the Old Town"), makes a mentions an "an old 'X' designation" of the FBI suggesting an X-Files analog withinin the Fringe reality.

Strangely, a scene from the X-Files season six episode "Dreamland" can briefly be seen on a television a the beginning of the episode indicating that the X-Files television series is also a fictional reality withinin the Fringe reality.


Three possibilities:
1) discount what we saw on TV as a topical reference (the same way we do for sliding timescale things, or if a show set in a given time period accidentally mentions or uses something that wasn't yet invented as a non-pivotal part of the story (e.g. a slightly anachronistic car or TV aerials visible on buildings in the background in a period drama). They aren't really there, "art error."
2) someone in Hollywood heard rumours of the X-Files analogue agency and turned it into a TV show (cf Wormhole X-Treme). And it presumably suited the FBI to let this happen, because it either would have drawn too much attention to try and stop it, or because it makes the general public less inclined to believe any whistle-blowers who try and expose the real agency. (White Wolf's Vampire posited that the real vampire Count Dracula was behind Bram Stoker's novel and then worked to encourage stage and later movie adaptations, because he was being hunted by both vampire slayers and fellow vampire; by making himself a household name, he encouraged copycats and impersonators (mad humans and real vampires), thus providing his pursuers countless false leads, and also meant that even those who believed in vampires would scoff at hunters saying they were chasing the "fictional" Dracula.)
3) temporary reality merger. When the realities were not merged, X-Files was a TV show in Fringe (like DC Comics existed in Milestone), then when the two realities merged thanks to "reality drift" the TV show presumably vanished or altered to be something else, accommodating the X-Files now being "real" in Fringe's universe (again, as in the DC / Milestone merges).

Sidney Osigna wrote:I don't know if anyone has pointed this http://www.cracked.com/article_19323_6- ... -ways.html out yet, but here it is.


Zach Kinkead wrote:I didn’t know about the Tarantino thing but I know most (maybe all) of Kevin Smith’s movies are in the same universe.


Its not uncommon for creators to create subtle links between their works, not just in movies. Alexandre Dumas, Sax Rohmer, "Kenneth Robeson," etc. all did so too. In the comics, certain creators have carried favourite characters, subtly altered to avoid copyright issues, from one company to the next.

Zach Kinkead wrote:The Id software one got me thinking about video game universes; specifically Kingdom Hearts.

For those that don’t know KH is a game series that combines Final Fantasy and Disney.

Now I’m not sure which Final Fantasy; I’m no expert on the series but I read that most of the games exist in their own universe.

However it’s the Disney part that interests me. I know the game universe includes Mickey and his pals as well as the Disney versions of characters like Hercules.


Disney already tied many of their characters together - their comics of old treated all the characters seen in any of their films and cartoons as one big smorgasbord, available for use in the comic strips,

Zach Kinkead wrote:The DD/TMNT one just reminds me of the Hulkpool story from Hulked Out Heroes where Wade has a hand in preventing just about everyone’s origin.


Yes, Wade diverged an alternate reality. Mind you, Bug of the Microns also interacted with a lot of those origins - just see his one-shot.

Zach Kinkead wrote:Speaking of Video game multiverses; have you seen the trailer for the Wreck-It Ralph movie?

Ralph, King Bowser, the Pac-Man ghosts, and several others are all part of the same villain support group


I have now! Cool! And that scene ties Marvel to it as well, since we can see some of the Street Fighter characters in the support group, who in turn met the Marvel characters in the various Marvel vs. Capcom games. So we it ties all of those game realities to the wider multiverse.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Aug 8, 2012, 10:36 pm

Stuart V wrote:Disney already tied many of their characters together - their comics of old treated all the characters seen in any of their films and cartoons as one big smorgasbord, available for use in the comic strips,


While its true that a lot of their properties are known to coexist (the Duck Tales/Darkwing Duck comic crossover was great), I never would have even considered a link between Fantasia and Tron if not for Kingdom Hearts.

Stuart V wrote:Yes, Wade diverged an alternate reality. Mind you, Bug of the Microns also interacted with a lot of those origins - just see his one-shot.


Wade’s dialogue after he saves Dr Strange is hilarious. That’s not really relevant here but it needs to be said.

I’d forgotten about the Bug thing though.

Stuart V wrote:I have now! Cool! And that scene ties Marvel to it as well, since we can see some of the Street Fighter characters in the support group, who in turn met the Marvel characters in the various Marvel vs. Capcom games. So we it ties all of those game realities to the wider multiverse.


Didn’t even think about that connection. The Capcom link gives us Megaman (and its various spin-offs). Megaman gives us the Captain N: Gamemaster cartoon and comics. Captain N gives us … pretty much every major Nintendo franchise from the 80s.

And, like I said, we could be here forever talking about the links between old Nintendo games.


Stuart V wrote:Aug 9, 2012, 05:08 am

Here's an old one, in terms of when it happened, but which I've only just become aware of. Bear with me for the preamble.

The most common variety of British comics, the weekly anthology, usually has a fairly fast and loose sense of shared universes - within a given comic, especially the humour strips, it's fairly common for characters from one strip to turn up for a cameo or guest shot in another. And when a British weekly cancelled, it was usually merged into a stronger sibling, so the more popular strips could continue and hopefully you'd combine the readerships. For our purposes though, this also meant that rather than just having a shared universe within a given title, you ended up with shared universes within a given company. To give you an example of this in action, when the title Whoopee! (the exclamation is part of the title) was cancelled, the surviving characters moved to Whizzer and Chips, and the first post-merger issue, the literal infant terrible Sweeny Toddler turned up in almost every other strip, looking for where they'd moved his strip; he wasn't too happy to find out he'd ended up on the back page.

One of the two biggest British companies was IPC (International Publishing Corporation), which was formed via the merger of various other companies such as Odhams Press and Hulton Press (original publishers of the Eagle, where Dan Dare debuted). These days IPC is owned by Time Warner, who also own DC, which is why DC (via Wildstorm) published Albion, which briefly revived a bunch of IPC characters. Up until now the only Omniversal link I could find for the IPC characters, barring analogues, was that one of them, Steel Claw, also turned up in US reprints that tied him, through shared backgrounds but not actual direct encounters, to Dez Skinn's Big Ben character, and that a Big Ben counterpart was in Marvelman's universe, and Marvelman had met various heroes from other realities during Eclipse Comics' Total Eclipse crossover event. However, now I've got a much more direct link.

In Pow!, published by Odhams Press (one of those that later joined to form IPC), strips were a mix of UK original material and licensed reprints of Marvel characters, specifically Spider-Man and Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD. One of the original strips was "Dare-a-Day Davy," a lad who would take on reader challenges to perform dangerous dares. During the run of his strip, Davy occasionally met other characters from within Pow!, as was perfectly normal, but then, on September 2nd, 1967, we got this encounter...


Zach Kinkead wrote:Aug 10, 2012, 12:45 am

A couple more TV ones…

Futurama appears to take place in the same world as the PJs. The Simpsons appears to be fictional in the Futurama show … but they’ve crossed over in the comics. I’m not going to even try to go into 20+ seasons of the Simpsons just to look for Omniverse links.

(Besides, Matt Groening tends more toward thinly veiled parody than actually naming, say, James Bond or Alley McBeal.)

All of Seth McFarline’s Fox cartoons (Family Guy, American Dad, and the Cleveland Show) take place in the same word (I wouldn’t be surprised if Ted took place there too). The throwaway references in Family Guy alone link those series to countless other TV shows, movies, comics, ect.

My Name is Earl and Raising Hope have a weird relationship. The shows were created by the same person so many writers and actors carried over from the first to the second. They’ve even used the same characters on occasion. But My Name is Earl is repeatedly mentioned in Raising Hope as a fictional TV show (starring “that guy from Mallrats” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Lee_(actor))) so the reality TV show handwave doesn’t work.


Michael Regan wrote:Aug 10, 2012, 09:55 am

Picket Fences and X-Files were meant to have a cross-over but the were never arrangements finalized. Planning progressed far enough to have an episode on each show focused on the same subject matter as it was planned to be a part one / part two scenerio. The clincher is that Picket Fences makes reference to the events of the X-Files episode as having happened.

On a more solid note, Picket Fences did cross-over with Chicago Hope on at least two occassions.

Does anyone remember a show called Strange Luck? It starred D.B. Sweeney and was actually quite good, cancelled at the end of one short season. Without detailing the entire plot of the seires, in the final episode, D.B. Sweeney character finds his brother whom he had thought had been killed and tells him that if anything were to happen to them to contact Fox Mulder at the FBI.


Eduardo M. wrote:Aug 10, 2012, 01:03 pm

Zack Kinkead wrote:My Name is Earl and Raising Hope have a weird relationship. The shows were created by the same person so many writers and actors carried over from the first to the second. They’ve even used the same characters on occasion. But My Name is Earl is repeatedly mentioned in Raising Hope as a fictional TV show (starring “that guy from Mallrats” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Lee_(actor))) so the reality TV show handwave doesn’t work.


I seem to remember reading somewhere that Raising Hope had a mention that Earl had finished his list.


Michael Regan wrote:Aug 21, 2012, 01:44 pm

Abram's fictional Slusho has appeared in many of his works starting with Alias and including Cloverfield, Fringe and a mention in Star Trek.

An Oceanic Airlines billboard can be seen in FlashForward, which it the ill-fated airline which crashed in Lost.

Fictional brands do not indicate a shared universe specifically, but 'may' indicate a link between realities unlike real world brands.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Aug 21, 2012, 06:16 pm

On fictional brands:

Didn’t early issues of Generation X name-drop the same cereal that Calvin (of Calvin and Hobbes) ate? I think it was “Frosted Sugar Bombs” or something like that.

(Calvin being a Franklin Richards-type reality manipulator would explain a lot)

Syndicated comic strips are another one we haven’t really explored. There’s the occasional crossover (mostly as an April fools gimmick or something). Then you have strips like Pearls Before Swine that us guest stars frequently (the cast of Family Circus are basically regulars at this point). Then there’s the weird relationship between the Spider-Man strip and the comics (they were loosely linked for a while but now they treat everything in the past decade or so as a very bad dream).

Eduardo M. wrote:I seem to remember reading somewhere that Raising Hope had a mention that Earl had finished his list.


Obviously Raising Hope takes place in a utopian world where MNiE got a proper ending.

Seriously, I don’t recall that being mentioned but – if true – that just complicates things even more. Of course, I don’t think they’ve ever actually mentioned MNiE by name (though the actors, characters, and premise frequently come up) so I suppose it’s possible that Jason Lee plays a fictional version of the “real” Earl while others (the prostitute) play fictional versions of themselves. Maybe the show caused Crab Man to get his cover blown and witness protection set him up with a new identity living near the Chances (you’d think Bert’d notice). Maybe the neighbor that looks like Randy but clearly isn’t Randy is a “How I Met Your Mother” type of doppelganger (you’d think Bert’d notice).

Yeah, there’s a crazy amount of hand waving involved in reconciling those two shows.


Michael Regan wrote:Aug 22, 2012, 08:35 am

Zack Kinkead wrote:On fictional brands:

Didn’t early issues of Generation X name-drop the same cereal that Calvin (of Calvin and Hobbes) ate? I think it was “Frosted Sugar Bombs” or something like that.

(Calvin being a Franklin Richards-type reality manipulator would explain a lot)


I had not thought of that, a very good point. I think that Calvin and Hobbs (as you mention in part) blurs the edges of reality and allows for an expanded sense of continuity regardless of what sillyness they display. Many of the similar mold strips follow the same concept and the same can be stated for Merrie Melodies / Looney Tunes cartoons and the likely inclusion of Who Framed Roger Rabbit? (discussed previously in this thread) into general continuity... arguably of course.


Clay Olsen wrote:Aug 22, 2012, 12:15 pm

Michael Regan wrote:Abram's fictional Slusho has appeared in many of his works starting with Alias and including Cloverfield, Fringe and a mention in Star Trek.

An Oceanic Airlines billboard can be seen in FlashForward, which it the ill-fated airline which crashed in Lost.

Fictional brands do not indicate a shared universe specifically, but 'may' indicate a link between realities unlike real world brands.


Oceanic has appeared in the background of most of Abrams works... at least the ones i've scene... it even predated LOST when it appeared in the background of ALIAS.

I'm not sure, but it may even have prior appearances before Abrams, and be one of those standard fictional companies that appear in the background of many movies and TV series. I seem to remember something being said about that in one of the episode commentaries of LOST on the DVDs.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Aug 22, 2012, 02:35 pm

Michael Regan wrote:blurs the edges of reality and allows for an expanded sense of continuity regardless of what sillyness they display… the same can be stated for Merrie Melodies / Looney Tunes cartoons and the likely inclusion of Who Framed Roger Rabbit? (discussed previously in this thread) into general continuity... arguably of course.


The Looney Tunes universe is what it is because of malevolent animators; just ask Daffy Duck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_Amuck

I’d forgotten about Roger Rabbit. That movie connects classic Disney cartoon characters with classic Warner Bros cartoon characters without having to resort to using their comic companies in a “Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon” kind of way.


zuckyd1 wrote:Aug 23, 2012, 09:12 pm

Regarding fictional brands:
Slusho also appeared on Heroes.
Some highlights from the sordid history of Oceanic Airlines: http://a-mystery.beforeitsnews.com/ente ... 51958.html
There is a company called Independent Studio Services which is a major supplier of props for Hollywood productions. They have created several fictional brands which pop up repeatedly in film and television (Heisler Beer, Playpen Magazine). They even have their own line of comic books: http://issprops.com/graphics/products/c ... omic_books

Regarding comic strip crossovers:
During Blondie’s 75th anniversary celebration, numerous comic strip characters made guest appearances. (Pearls Before Swine made fun of the fact that they were not invited.)
Popeye Meets the Man Who Hated Laughter was a 1972 animated TV special that featured characters from most of the King Features Syndicate comic strips.
And then there’s John Byrne’s contribution: http://www.comicscube.com/2010/08/easte ... yrnes.html


Zach Kinkead wrote:Aug 24, 2012, 12:42 am

I wish there was a comic strip equivalent to this webcomics crossover index …

http://www.dragoneers.com/crossovers/

Incidentally, that site is REALLY comprehensive. They even have hilarious abandoned sprite comics with very low standards on guest writers (http://www.dragoneers.com/crossovers/Xsprites.html)


Zach Kinkead wrote:Aug 27, 2012, 06:53 pm

If you’re a fan of alternate realities or the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles then you owe it to yourself to check out the Turtles Forever movie. It’s for TMNT what I wish Spider-Man: Shattered Dimensions had been for Spidey (at least I’ve been hearing good things about Spider-Men and the old 616/2099 crossover was great). Every incarnation of the TMNT at least gets a cameo though the focus is on the classic cartoon and most recent (I think) cartoon versions.

As for the larger Omniverse … well at the very least there’s the current comic’s loose ties to the other IDW properties (including D&D) via the second Infestation crossover and the original comic’s connection with Usagi Yojimbo (who was also in the first cartoon) and Cerebus.

Kind of a shame there were no crossovers – that I recall anyway – during my favorite TMNT incarnation; the Archie Comics run. Mutanimals don’t count.


zuckyd1 wrote:Aug 27, 2012, 10:03 pm

Zach Kinkead wrote:Kind of a shame there were no crossovers – that I recall anyway – during my favorite TMNT incarnation; the Archie Comics run. Mutanimals don’t count.


The Turtles actually did meet Archie and the gang: http://crossover.bureau42.com/zArchieTurtles.html

Other TMNT crossovers have included: Flaming Carrot, Savage Dragon, Panda Khan, Miami Mice, Power Rangers in Space, the Big Bang universe, CreeD, Last of the Viking Heroes, Sonic the Hedgehog, Garfield, Munden’s Bar (Grimjack), Gizmo (not the gremlin), Wild West C.O.W.-Boys of Moo Mesa, Rabbids, Nestor (Howard and Nestor), World of Warcraft, Sherlock Holmes.

They appeared in Quest For Dreams Lost along with characters from The Trollords, Silent Invasion, The Realm, Wordsmith, Reacto Man, Eb'nn, and Tales From The Aniverse. (This one-shot comic also included references to Dorian Gray, the Maltese Falcon, H. G. Wells’ Time Machine, the Shadow, and L. Frank Baum’s Oz.)

They appeared in Equine the Uncivilized #6 along with Panda Khan, Captain Jack, Crow of the Bear Clan, Usagi Yojimbo, and Duncan & Mallory.

They appeared in Gen¹³ #13B along with Fone Bone, Madman, Mr. Spook and Professor Garbanzo (Beanworld), Savage Dragon, and Spawn.

They appeared in Cartoon All-Stars to the Rescue along with characters from ALF, Alvin and the Chipmunks, DuckTales, Winnie the Pooh, Muppet Babies, Garfield, The Real Ghostbusters, Smurfs, and Looney Tunes.

They appear in Nickelodeon’s Super Mini Puzzle Heroes game along with characters from Fairly OddParents, Kung Fu Panda, Invader Zim, Winx Club, SpongeBob SquarePants, Jimmy Neutron, T.U.F.F. Puppy, Avatar: The Last Airbender, The Legend of Korra, Danny Phantom, Power Rangers, My Life as a Teenage Robot, Monkey Quest, Fanboy and Chum Chum, and The Penguins of Madagascar.

Additional info:
http://turtlepedia.wikia.com/wiki/Categ ... Characters
http://www.televisioncrossoveruniverse. ... rtles.html


Zach Kinkead wrote:Aug 28, 2012, 02:02 am

I don’t remember the train of thought that made this come to mind so I feel like I’m missing something pivotal but the other day I was thinking about Hannah Barbera.

Specifically, Scooby Doo. That dog has met everyone from Batman to Blue Falcon to the Globetrotters.

He was once represented by Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law. Harvey’s other clients include the the Jetsons, Apache Chief, and Dr. Quest.

Several Jonny Quest characters have had good-sized roles on Venture Bros. That’s a bit strange because (a) usually Venture Bros just parodies classic comics and adventure cartoons rather than having the “real” version and (b) the Venture family is a deconstruction of the Quest family.

zuckyd1 wrote:The Turtles actually did meet Archie and the gang: http://crossover.bureau42.com/zArchieTurtles.html


I had no idea that existed. Radical!

zuckyd1 wrote:Other TMNT crossovers have included: …Garfield, …Wild West C.O.W.-Boys of Moo Mesa


I’m assuming this is the cartoon versions but I’d completely forgotten about those crossovers and I watched all three of those as a kid.

zuckyd1 wrote:Sherlock Holmes.


Sherlock crosses over with EVERYONE… which is great for the purposes of this thread.

Also his brother was among the literary characters in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

zuckyd1 wrote:Muppet Babies,


It wouldn’t surprise me at all if you told me they used TMNT clips in the actual Muppet Babies cartoon.


Sidney Osinga wrote:Aug 28, 2012, 02:15 am

zuckyd1 wrote:The Turtles actually did meet Archie and the gang: http://crossover.bureau42.com/zArchieTurtles.html


And of course, Archie had a crossover with the Punisher. And in THAT crossover, it also mentioned that the X-Men and the Howling Commadoes existed in the same world.


zuckyd1 wrote:Aug 28, 2012, 11:21 am

Zach Kinkead wrote:I’m assuming this is the cartoon versions but I’d completely forgotten about those crossovers and I watched all three of those as a kid.


The crossovers did not take place within the original cartoon series.
Garfield made an appearance in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Magazine: http://tmnt.wikia.com/wiki/Garfield
The C.O.W.-Boys showed up in two issues of Tales of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and one episode of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Fast Forward: http://turtlepedia.wikia.com/wiki/Wild_ ... ppearances


Zach Kinkead wrote:Aug 29, 2012, 03:04 am

So here are a few links between two different thieves from French literature, an English detective, and modern comics and animation (eastern and western).

Maurice Leblanc’s gentleman thief, Arsène Lupin, has meet Sherlock Holmes…which annoyed Sir Conan Doyle so much that later editions of the story changed his name.

Arsène Lupin is the grandfather of the main character in the Lupin the 3rd anime.

Also IIRC there was an episode of Lupin the 3rd that featured a cameo one of Holmes’ decedents…or maybe it was Lupin is disguise. Half the one-shot characters turn out to be Lupin in disguise. Either way, the fact that Zenigata thought the character might be a real Holmes means that the original early 1900s crossover continuity is still intact.

Arsène Lupin’s ghost shows up as a one-shot villain in an episode of the Soul Eater anime.

I don’t know much about Fantomos (mostly because he isn’t nearly as fun as Lupin). I do know that …

Both Fantomos and Lupin had cameos in the second League of Extraordinary Gentlemen* mini.

In the Venture Bros universe Fantomos is a founder of the Guild of Calamitous Intent and the grandfather of Phantom Limb.

*Moore’s LoEG is great for this type of thing. Plus one of the main characters has a history with Dracula and Dracula is a crossover magnet.

Sidney Osigna wrote:And of course, Archie had a crossover with the Punisher. And in THAT crossover, it also mentioned that the X-Men and the Howling Commadoes existed in the same world.


Yeah, that Punisher crossover idea is even more out there than the one with KISS. I used to think Archie had weird crossovers all the time. That site only lists the three we’ve mentioned here. Apparently I’m just living in the golden age of inappropriate Archie crossovers. That a shame because the world needs more oddball Archie crossovers.

Who will Archie take to the dance? Betty? Veronica? Wonder Woman?

zuckyd1 wrote:The crossovers did not take place within the original cartoon series.
Garfield made an appearance in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Magazine: http://tmnt.wikia.com/wiki/Garfield


Garfield must not know they eat earthworm, jellybean, and onion pizza. Not even he’d eat that. He’s a cat; those onions could kill him.

zuckyd1 wrote:The C.O.W.-Boys showed up in two issues of Tales of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and one episode of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Fast Forward: http://turtlepedia.wikia.com/wiki/Wild_ ... ppearances


I actually thought Moo Mesa only existed as a cartoon. I’ll have to check out Tales at some point. Didn’t that series open with a Peter David arc?

I missed out on Fast Forward. I saw the original cartoon as a kid and saw sporadic episodes of the Fox series (which are the two universes most represented in Turtles Forever).

Then there was Next Mutation. That series was so terrible that it’s entertaining. Apparently that that show had a crossover with one of the Power Rangers shows.


zuckyd1 wrote:Aug 29, 2012, 10:57 am

Zach Kinkead wrote:Maurice Leblanc’s gentleman thief, Arsène Lupin, has meet Sherlock Holmes…which annoyed Sir Conan Doyle so much that later editions of the story changed his name.


The name was changed, variously, to "Herlock Sholmes" or "Holmlock Shears”.
Lupin and Holmes show up in one of Boris Akunin’s Erast Fandorin stories. They also face off in a recent video game.
Lupin (or an analogue) has also met Fantômas, Rouletabille, Belphégor, the Phantom of the Opera, Les Vampires, the Shadow, Sexton Blake, Modesty Blaise, Number Six, Harry Lime, Kogoro Akechi, and Scrooge McDuck.
One of the characters from the manga/anime Aria the Scarlet Ammo is a descendent of Lupin.

Zach Kinkead wrote:Both Fantomos and Lupin had cameos in the second League of Extraordinary Gentlemen* mini.


Fantômas has also met Sherlock Holmes, Raffles, Maigret, Les Vampires, Diabolik, the Green Hornet, and Iris Wildthyme.
He appears in Kim Newman’s The Bloody Red Baron along with Dracula, Count Orlok, Dr. Caligari, Dr. Mabuse, Dr. Moreau, Robur, Judex, the Shadow, Bulldog Drummond, Mycroft Holmes, Monk Mayfair, Simon Templar, Herbert West, Lord Peter Wimsey, Jay Gatsby, Biggles, the Heap, and many others
The grandson of Lupin encountered the grandson of Fantômas in the Lupin III episode “The Mad Fantoma Mark III”.

Zach Kinkead wrote:*Moore’s LoEG is great for this type of thing. Plus one of the main characters has a history with Dracula and Dracula is a crossover magnet.


Kim Newman’s Anno Dracula series (of which The Bloody Red Baron is one volume) is likewise a great crossover trove.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Aug 29, 2012, 02:26 pm

Another League of Extraordinary Gentlemen one I forgot. The title of M has been held by the following characters in LoEG…

Prof James Moriarty and Mycroft Holmes (from Sherlock Holmes)
Harry Lime (from the Third Man)

They employ a guy named “Bond”. The modern M is James Bond’s boss. Its generally assumed the first Bond is the grandfather of the second but I’m not sure it has been verified.

zuckyd1 wrote:The name was changed, variously, to "Herlock Sholmes" or "Holmlock Shears”.


Yeah, the “Herlock Sholmes” change is kind of hilarious.

zuckyd1 wrote:Lupin (or an analogue) has also met Fantômas, Rouletabille, Belphégor, the Phantom of the Opera, Les Vampires, the Shadow, Sexton Blake, Modesty Blaise, Number Six, Harry Lime, Kogoro Akechi, and Scrooge McDuck.


I wasn’t counting analogues partly because I don’t think characters like the X-Men’s Fantomex should be counted just because their creation was inspired by Fantômas and partly because any fictional gentleman thief could be counted as a Lupin knockoff.

Still, there are a couple Phantoms (not the purple-clad African adventure hero from the comic strips) of note that were inspired by Fantômas. The Phantoms from the movie versions of the Pink Panther and League of Extraordinary Gentlemen are Fantomex in everything but name. Granted the guy from LXG turned out to be Moriarty.

zuckyd1 wrote:Jay Gatsby,


There are Great Gatsby crossovers?

zuckyd1 wrote:The grandson of Lupin encountered the grandson of Fantômas in the Lupin III episode “The Mad Fantoma Mark III”.


Forgot about that. That was a good one.


zuckyd1 wrote:Aug 29, 2012, 03:59 pm

Zach Kinkead wrote:I wasn’t counting analogues partly because I don’t think characters like the X-Men’s Fantomex should be counted just because their creation was inspired by Fantômas and partly because any fictional gentleman thief could be counted as a Lupin knockoff.


I try to distinguish between those analogues who are “in all but name” and those who are merely inspired by the original character. But it’s often tricky, especially when one must rely on second-hand sources.
However, as far as I can tell, the real Lupin legitamately met (or at least appeared in the same story as) Fantômas, Rouletabille, Belphégor, the Phantom of the Opera, Les Vampires, Modesty Blaise, Number Six, Harry Lime, and Kogoro Akechi (The Tales of the Shadowmen books).
Scrooge McDuck’s Arpine Lusène? Maybe not so much. LOL

Zach Kinkead wrote:There are Great Gatsby crossovers?


Yup. It seems that these days no one’s immune. Writers like Moore and Newman tend to pull in esoteric references from the most unexpected of sources. A few more Gatsby connections:
In LXG: Black Dossier, Orlando is a guest at Gatsby’s wild parties.
The Case of the Philosopher's Ring by Randall Collins is a Sherlock Holmes mystery with references to Gatsby, Inspector "Clouzot”, and "Phineas" Fogg.
Another novel, Nick & Jake by Tad Richards and Jonathan F. Richards, stars Gatsby's Nick Carraway and references The Sun Also Rises, The Quiet American, The Razor’s Edge, The Shadow, The Mary Tyler Moore Show, and A Mighty Wind.

Although not a crossover per se, Gatsby has inevitably fallen victim to the current literature/horror mashup craze: http://www.amazon.com/The-Late-Gatsby-e ... B008U17O7S
And of course, there’s Gatsby: The Video Game: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/blog-p ... e_rel.html


Zach Kinkead wrote:Aug 30, 2012, 02:57 am

zuckyd1 wrote:I try to distinguish between those analogues who are “in all but name” and those who are merely inspired by the original character. But it’s often tricky, especially when one must rely on second-hand sources.


Yeah, its tricky. Plus, if the character isn’t named then I’m never actually sure if the similarities are intentional. Granted sometimes the authorial intent is pretty obvious based on their work.

Samurai Jack has met the “Lone Wolf and Cub” and the Frank Miller version of the 300 but neither was named (probably for legal reasons).

If you see something or someone in Terry Pratchett book that seems familiar then chances are good that it was meant to be even if it isn’t the “real” version. He’s very much a “story about stories” guy.

Speaking of stories about stories; have any of you guys read the Unwritten? The comic exists in a world where many literary characters are real. Likewise with Fables and, well, fables and other folklore. Frankenstein’s monster is a character in both comics.

Frankenstein’s monster is another crossover magnet. He’s even meet Abbott and Costello.

zuckyd1 wrote:However, as far as I can tell, the real Lupin legitamately met …Harry Lime,


I really hope that the entirety of that story was Lupin kicking Lime in the ribs.

Scrooge McDuck’s Arpine Lusène? Maybe not so much. LOL

Yeah, Disney loves those. I read on the wiki page that a Fantômas analogue showed up in a Donald Duck story. Mickey, Goofy, and Donald are the Three Musketeers in the new Kingdom Hearts* game I mentioned. I remember an episode of Rescue Rangers that had a parody of Cyrano de Bergerac**.

And everyone has done something with the Phantom of the Opera even if it isn’t the “real” Phantom*** and it may not necessarily be a Opera.

*Does the existence of Organization XII indicate the Kingdom Hearts is part of the Final Fantasy XII universe? Seriously, I know very little about the Final Fantasy multiverse beyond the fact that most of the numbered games are reboots.

**The fictional version, of course.

***Also not the guy with the skull ring. ;-)

zuckyd1 wrote:Yup. It seems that these days no one’s immune. Writers like Moore and Newman tend to pull in esoteric references from the most unexpected of sources. A few more Gatsby connections:
In LXG: Black Dossier, Orlando is a guest at Gatsby’s wild parties.


I forgot about that one. Then again, the third LoEG story was kind of a chore to get through.


Michael Regan wrote:Sep 4, 2012, 12:30 pm

Michael Regan wrote:Abram's fictional Slusho has appeared in many of his works starting with Alias and including Cloverfield, Fringe and a mention in Star Trek.

An Oceanic Airlines billboard can be seen in FlashForward, which it the ill-fated airline which crashed in Lost.

Fictional brands do not indicate a shared universe specifically, but 'may' indicate a link between realities unlike real world brands.


MacCutcheon Scotch Whiskey from Lost is briefly seen in a third season episode of Fringe and also an episode of Once Upon a Time, interestingly titled "Sheppard". Fringe and Lost are by Abrams, but Once Upon a Time is not.


zuckyd1 wrote:Sep 4, 2012, 02:48 pm

Michael Regan wrote:MacCutcheon Scotch Whiskey from Lost is briefly seen in a third season episode of Fringe and also an episode of Once Upon a Time, interestingly titled "Sheppard". Fringe and Lost are by Abrams, but Once Upon a Time is not.


Once Upon a Time was created by two former writers of Lost, and a number of easter eggs appear such as Apollo candy bars and Geronimo Jackson: http://seriable.com/once-upon-a-time-1- ... ster-eggs/
Also making appearances in Rumplestiltskin's castle are the scythe from Buffy the Vampire Slayer and the magician's hat from Fantasia.


Eduardo M. wrote:Sep 4, 2012, 05:03 pm

i don't know if this has been mentioned yet but a Japanese cartoon that Charlie Sheen's "Two and a Half Men" character worked on was mentioned in a scene in an episode of Big Bang Theory


zuckyd1 wrote:Sep 4, 2012, 10:48 pm

Eduardo M. wrote:i don't know if this has been mentioned yet but a Japanese cartoon that Charlie Sheen's "Two and a Half Men" character worked on was mentioned in a scene in an episode of Big Bang Theory


Both shows share the same producer.
Two and a Half Men has also crossed over with CSI.


Michael Regan wrote:Sep 5, 2012, 08:34 am

zuckyd1 wrote:Once Upon a Time was created by two former writers of Lost, and a number of easter eggs appear such as Apollo candy bars and Geronimo Jackson: http://seriable.com/once-upon-a-time-1- ... ster-eggs/
Also making appearances in Rumplestiltskin's castle are the scythe from Buffy the Vampire Slayer and the magician's hat from Fantasia.


Ah, that explains the whiskey and I thought I saw an Apollo bar but forgot about it. Buffy is also Abrams' and Fantasia goes without saying since the fairy tale connections slant towards the Disney versions rather than classic. ABC is part of Disney.


zuckyd1 wrote:Sep 5, 2012, 09:31 pm

Michael Regan wrote:Ah, that explains the whiskey and I thought I saw an Apollo bar but forgot about it. Buffy is also Abrams' and Fantasia goes without saying since the fairy tale connections slant towards the Disney versions rather than classic. ABC is part of Disney.


Buffy was actually by Whedon. I sometimes get the two confused myself. :)


Michael Regan wrote:Sep 6, 2012, 09:15 am

zuckyd1 wrote:Buffy was actually by Whedon. I sometimes get the two confused myself. :)


Crap, yes... I do as well it appears ;)


Zach Kinkead wrote:Sep 9, 2012, 03:40 pm

Remember what I said about the Simpsons and Futurama being a weird case where one person’s closely related properties DON’T coexist? The Simpsons are fictional in Futurama and vice versa.

That’s all still true. However they still have had a sort of crossover in comic form.

I sort of have a hard time seeing it as a “real” crossover. It takes place firmly in the Futurama universe. The Brains invade again and transport the Planet Express staff into a fictional world. This time the Brains sent them into a Simpsons comic* instead of sending them to deal with Moby Dick and Jane Austen novels. After the crew got home they discovered that the borders between reality and fiction had broken down. Soon New New York was full of characters from Springfield and various other worlds.

*A Simpsons comic that had such fictional British characters as Harry Potter, Doctor Who, the Avengers (the other ones), and the guy from the Ministry of Silly Walks.

There are really too many mini-crossovers in the second half of that story to mention. Bender shared a panel with Inspector Javert from Les Misérables. Dracula became mayor as a throwaway gag. And then there’s a hilarious page where we see Bart and Fry confronted by the shadowy “Copyright Protected” images of various Marvel and DC heroes.


Michael Regan wrote:Sep 10, 2012, 06:33 pm

As I catch up on cartoons I have missed, I've taken some time to watch episodes of Lunatics Unleashed featuring decendands of the original Looney Tunes set in the year 2772. Ignoring the credit sequence of Duck Dodgers which is set in the 24½ century, is it possible that Dodgers is a decendant of Daffy and ancester to Danger Duck? As such, they could all be connected to Green Lantern given his appearance in the Duck Dodgers series (mentioned previously in the thread)


captainswift wrote:Sep 10, 2012, 07:36 pm

Michael Regan wrote:As I catch up on cartoons I have missed, I've taken some time to watch episodes of Lunatics Unleashed featuring decendands of the original Looney Tunes set in the year 2772. Ignoring the credit sequence of Duck Dodgers which is set in the 24½ century, is it possible that Dodgers is a decendant of Daffy and ancester to Danger Duck? As such, they could all be connected to Green Lantern given his appearance in the Duck Dodgers series (mentioned previously in the thread)


Canonically, in the Looney Tunes universe, the characters are actors who play (usually) themselves in various animated shorts. Which cartoons, if any, feature their everyday lives vs. "performances" are arguable, but undoubtedly, in canon, Duck Dodgers is a character Daffy plays.

Of course, since we're using the Marvel Comics model for the Omniverse, there is also a Duck Dodgers universe where the events Daffy portrays in his role as Dodgers actually occur. So, I suppose it's possible that in Earth-Dodgers' past, there lived a Daffy Duck who is the ancestor of Daffy... And then we've got Robin Hood Daffy, Drip-Along Daffy, Duck Twacey, Stupor Duck, the Scarlet P-p-pumpernickel...

The Looney Tunes multiverse could get complicated fast.


Michael Regan wrote:Sep 17, 2012, 05:22 pm

I tend to use a logical view of the Omniverse in that any fictional reality is potentially a real reality somewhere.

I'm not sure if this was asked before (I cannot see any mention of if) but if we look at comic book adaptations we could be not only looking at the reality of the original work (barring any great differences presented in the adaptation), but could we actually be seeing an entry in the comic book's multiverse?

For example, everyone should be familiar with The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the 8th Dimension (1984) which was adapted into comic form the same year by Marvel twice. The first publication was in the magazine Marvel Super Special #33 and later that year as a two part Backaroo Banzai mini-series.

There are no great differences between the adaptation or the original movie so they should both be considered part of the same reality, but could the comics be part of the Marvel Multiverse... or perhaps more easily acceptable as part of the Marvel Megaverse?


zuckyd1 wrote:Sep 19, 2012, 06:09 pm

Michael Regan wrote:I tend to use a logical view of the Omniverse in that any fictional reality is potentially a real reality somewhere.

I'm not sure if this was asked before (I cannot see any mention of if) but if we look at comic book adaptations we could be not only looking at the reality of the original work (barring any great differences presented in the adaptation), but could we actually be seeing an entry in the comic book's multiverse?

For example, everyone should be familiar with The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the 8th Dimension (1984) which was adapted into comic form the same year by Marvel twice. The first publication was in the magazine Marvel Super Special #33 and later that year as a two part Backaroo Banzai mini-series.

There are no great differences between the adaptation or the original movie so they should both be considered part of the same reality, but could the comics be part of the Marvel Multiverse... or perhaps more easily acceptable as part of the Marvel Megaverse?


I'm not sure I follow you. Absent any crossovers, what would qualify BB as being part of the Marvel Megaverse? Simply the fact that it was published by Marvel?


Michael Regan wrote:Sep 19, 2012, 06:57 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:I'm not sure I follow you. Absent any crossovers, what would qualify BB as being part of the Marvel Megaverse? Simply the fact that it was published by Marvel?


Yes.


zuckyd1 wrote:Sep 19, 2012, 08:48 pm

Michael Regan wrote:Yes.


So then does it follow that the various stories of a particular author also automatically constitute their own megaverse, even if there is nothing else to connect the stories? Is there a “Charles Dickens megaverse”, a “Michael Crichton megaverse”, a <shudder> “Danielle Steel megaverse”?
What about non-comic publishers? Is there a “Random House megaverse”? A “Paramount Pictures megaverse”?
Can a single universe/multiverse belong to more than one megaverse? Wouldn’t Buckaroo Banzai also be part of the “Moonstone megaverse”, along with Airboy, Bulldog Drummond, Dracula, Frankenstein, Hack/Slash, Kolchak, the Phantom, Sherlock Holmes, the Spider, etc?
And what about Classics Illustrated???


Michael Regan wrote:Sep 20, 2012, 02:18 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:So then does it follow that the various stories of a particular author also automatically constitute their own megaverse, even if there is nothing else to connect the stories? Is there a “Charles Dickens megaverse”, a “Michael Crichton megaverse”, a <shudder> “Danielle Steel megaverse”?
What about non-comic publishers? Is there a “Random House megaverse”? A “Paramount Pictures megaverse”?
Can a single universe/multiverse belong to more than one megaverse? Wouldn’t Buckaroo Banzai also be part of the “Moonstone megaverse”, along with Airboy, Bulldog Drummond, Dracula, Frankenstein, Hack/Slash, Kolchak, the Phantom, Sherlock Holmes, the Spider, etc?
And what about Classics Illustrated???


Personally, I would say that all of that is very possible depending on your point of view. I would not include non-comic publishers but comic publishers certainly would have a Mega-Verse since so many titles potentially cross over into standard titles (at which point they would move from a Megaversal classification to a Multiversal classification).

Your mention of Moonstone was actually where I was going with this train of thought, essentially connecting Marvel with Moonstone with not just a dotted line, but a very faint dotted line ;)

This all depends on ones view of the use of the concept of a Megaverse.


Eduardo M. wrote:Sep 20, 2012, 08:36 pm

Would it be rcazy to assume fighting games have their own megaverses based on the concept of multiple endings?


zuckyd1 wrote:Sep 20, 2012, 09:43 pm

Stuart V wrote:Personally, I would say that all of that is very possible depending on your point of view. I would not include non-comic publishers but comic publishers certainly would have a Mega-Verse since so many titles potentially cross over into standard titles (at which point they would move from a Megaversal classification to a Multiversal classification).

Your mention of Moonstone was actually where I was going with this train of thought, essentially connecting Marvel with Moonstone with not just a dotted line, but a very faint dotted line ;)

This all depends on ones view of the use of the concept of a Megaverse.


This publisher-based megaverse theory would also provide an (admitedly-weak) solution to Stuart’s Ninja High School problem. NHS is published by Antarctic Press. They also have published Airboy, DNAgents, Strangers in Paradise, and Warrior Nun Areala—all of who can solidly be linked via crossovers to the main portion of the Omniverse Map.
For me it’s not a terribly satisfying way to draw connections (especially when considering publishers as opposed to individual writers), but it’s better than nothing (and IMO better than “stooping” to fan-fiction).


zuckyd1 wrote:Sep 20, 2012, 09:57 pm

Eduardo M. wrote:Would it be rcazy to assume fighting games have their own megaverses based on the concept of multiple endings?


The term "multiverse" would probably be more appropriate, given that the multiple endings all occur in universes that share common basic features. The endings would constitute divergent realities within that multiverse. (What if Spider-Man had joined the Fantastic Four? What if I had moved left instead of right?)


Eduardo M. wrote:Sep 20, 2012, 11:28 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:The term "multiverse" would probably be more appropriate, given that the multiple endings all occur in universes that share common basic features. The endings would constitute divergent realities within that multiverse. (What if Spider-Man had joined the Fantastic Four? What if I had moved left instead of right?)


That's what I meant. sry about that. move related stress


Michael Regan wrote:Sep 21, 2012, 09:09 am

Another odd example of links would short stories and books adapted into television series, something common with The Twilight Zone and The Outer Limits.

A simple example is the pilot episode for the 1995 series of The Outer Limits based on "The Sandkings" by George R. R. Martin. Obviously part of The Outer Limits Universe/Multiverse it would have to be considered part of a "Sandkings" Multiverse or perhaps even a "George R. R. Martin" Megaverse.

An extended example would be the short story "Steel" by Richard Matheson which was adapted into a The Twilight Zone episode in 1963 and as the more recent theatrical release Real Steel. Unless we simply define a Steel Multiverse, we may need a Richard Matheson Multiverse.

It all comes down to interpretation and how complex everyone wants the links to be.

At some point we could even discuss Philip K. Dick.


Eduardo M. wrote:Sep 21, 2012, 12:01 pm

Michael Regan wrote:At some point we could even discuss Philip K. Dick.


That brings up a frightening thought. Imagine a multiverse based off different versions of different movies. You could have a world where Decker is not a replicant and one where he is.

There could be world where Han shot first and Anakin's spirit did not appear to Luke as a young man


Michael Regan wrote:Sep 21, 2012, 12:19 pm

Eduardo M. wrote:That brings up a frightening thought. Imagine a multiverse based off different versions of different movies. You could have a world where Decker is not a replicant and one where he is.

There could be world where Han shot first and Anakin's spirit did not appear to Luke as a young man


Ah, the complications of things! Some of those could be attributed to retcon but others cannot. The Star Wars changes I think would be an unfortunte retcon, but as the Blade Runner change is a Director's Cut... and still not completely definitive in the truest sense.

Going back to Philip K. Dick for a moment, if we ignore the various production companies involved, could all of the feature films (and television shows for that matter) fit within a single timeline or Universe? I think it could be possible...


zuckyd1 wrote:Sep 21, 2012, 12:50 pm

Michael Regan wrote:An extended example would be the short story "Steel" by Richard Matheson which was adapted into a The Twilight Zone episode in 1963 and as the more recent theatrical release Real Steel. Unless we simply define a Steel Multiverse, we may need a Richard Matheson Multiverse.


I would propose the following definitions:
Steel multiverse: the similar yet non-identical versions of the story "Steel".
Richard Matheson megaverse: the collection of otherwise-unreleated stories of Richard Matheson.


Michael Regan wrote:Sep 21, 2012, 02:58 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:I would propose the following definitions:
Steel multiverse: the similar yet non-identical versions of the story "Steel".
Richard Matheson megaverse: the collection of otherwise-unreleated stories of Richard Matheson.


That would be my take on it as well. The Twilight Zone episode is also part of the Twilight Zone Universe or Multiverse


zuckyd1 wrote:Sep 21, 2012, 05:22 pm

Michael Regan wrote:For example, everyone should be familiar with The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the 8th Dimension (1984) which was adapted into comic form the same year by Marvel twice. The first publication was in the magazine Marvel Super Special #33 and later that year as a two part Backaroo Banzai mini-series.

There are no great differences between the adaptation or the original movie so they should both be considered part of the same reality, but could the comics be part of the Marvel Multiverse... or perhaps more easily acceptable as part of the Marvel Megaverse?


If both the movie and the comics inhabit the same universe, wouldn't that mean that the movie is part of the Marvel Megaverse as well?


zuckyd1 wrote:Sep 21, 2012, 05:30 pm

Michael Regan wrote:Going back to Philip K. Dick for a moment, if we ignore the various production companies involved, could all of the feature films (and television shows for that matter) fit within a single timeline or Universe? I think it could be possible...


I've always been partial to the idea that all of an author's works inhabit the same reality unless there is evidence indicating that they can't.
For example, AFAIK there is nothing within Charles Dickens' novels to suggest that they inhabit the same reality. But there is also nothing to suggest that they don't. Therefore I like to think that they do.
(Of course my Dickens example ignores the many later authors who have indeed crossed over various Dickens characters.)


Michael Regan wrote:Sep 21, 2012, 05:36 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:I've always been partial to the idea that all of an author's works inhabit the same reality unless there is evidence indicating that they can't.
For example, AFAIK there is nothing within Charles Dickens' novels to suggest that they inhabit the same reality. But there is also nothing to suggest that they don't. Therefore I like to think that they do.
(Of course my Dickens example ignores the many later authors who have indeed crossed over various Dickens characters.)


I was looking at the possible continuing themes which could have one film be somewhat connected to or branch into another.


Michael Regan wrote:Sep 22, 2012, 09:34 pm

In the Fringe episode "The Firefly", Walter puts on an off pair of glasses with one red lense and one blue lense. He mentions that they were invented by a friend named Dr. Jacoby in Washington State.

Doctor Jacoby was a character in Twin Peaks who wore the same type of glasses. This suggests either a shared reality, or at least a parallel of the character within the Fringe reality.


zuckyd1 wrote:Sep 23, 2012, 08:48 pm

Two of Steve Niles' comics, Criminal Macabre and 30 Days of Night, will be crossing over in a 4-issue series jointly published by Dark Horse and IDW.


Michael Regan wrote:Sep 24, 2012, 11:52 am

The television series Once Upon a Time is based on various stories attributed to the Brother Grimm and is therefore part of a Brothers Grimm Multiverse. It also includes elements from The Adventures of Pinocchio and therefore part of a Pinocchio Multiverse.

As many of the fairy tale characters are also given various traits which originated in the Disney adaptations of the classic Grimm stories, they could likely be part of the Disney Animated Multiverse.

As more "Disney" additions are added to the show the root connections grow. With the addition of Belle from Beauty and the Beast, there is also a connection to a La Belle et la Bête Multiverse.

Have I missed some? I have yet to see all of season one and would likely miss something anyway.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Sep 24, 2012, 02:33 pm

The Brothers Grimm namedrop reminds me of something. This is less of a multiverse thing and more about the nature of certain universes.

The TV show “Grimm” seems to take place in a world where the general public has never heard of the Brother’s Grimm.

Robert Kirkman has confirmed that the various Walking Dead universes take place in worlds where no one had heard of zombies prior to the zombie apocalypse. (That sort of raises some interesting religion-related questions.)

Oh, and just to tie it back into the multiverse thing, IIRC it was strongly implied that Invincible visited the Walking Dead universe (along with the DCU, Marvel Universe, and others)


Michael Regan wrote:Sep 24, 2012, 02:58 pm

That is a good point, once worth keeping in mind in many respects.

Similarly, it is easy to relate to many of the characters in shows when reality is similar to our own but we can never forget that the realities, obviously, are not our own. In such instances certain "mistakes" can likley be forgiven.

Not the best example, but one that comes to mind at the moment, is the Captain American film of 1990. Captain America is activated in WWII he displays an American Flag with 50 stars. In our reality the flag should only have 48 stars but perhaps Alaska and Hawaii had joined earlier in this reality.


zuckyd1 wrote:Sep 24, 2012, 03:23 pm

Michael Regan wrote:That is a good point, once worth keeping in mind in many respects.

Similarly, it is easy to relate to many of the characters in shows when reality is similar to our own but we can never forget that the realities, obviously, are not our own. In such instances certain "mistakes" can likley be forgiven.

Not the best example, but one that comes to mind at the moment, is the Captain American film of 1990. Captain America is activated in WWII he displays an American Flag with 50 stars. In our reality the flag should only have 48 stars but perhaps Alaska and Hawaii had joined earlier in this reality.


That's a really cool way of looking at things. I remember one of the very first movie "goofs" that was ever pointed out to me was from Raiders of the Lost Ark. A map shows Indy's plane flying over Thailand on the way to Nepal. In 1936, when the movie takes place, Thailand was still called Siam. But who's to say...


Zach Kinkead wrote:Sep 24, 2012, 04:04 pm

Now that I think about it; that happens a lot. If anyone in most horror movies had actually SEEN a horror movie (or even an episode of Scooby Doo) they’d know better than to split up.

When the Watchmen movie came out there were some critics who clearly knew nothing about the comic and apparently expected it to another Spider-Man or something. They complained about EVERYTHING from explicit content (did they not see the rating?) to left-wing bias (because everything has to have an agenda) to “historical inaccuracies”.

Yes, apparently some people can’t wrap their head around the fact that a story with a bunch of superheroes is set in a universe other than our own.


zuckyd1 wrote:Oct 5, 2012, 04:32 pm

A few additional crossovers that I don't think have been mentioned so far:
Ghost/Batgirl
Witchblade/Darkchylde
Lady Death/Medieval Witchblade
Warrior Nun Areala and Glory: also includes analogues of Spawn, Hellboy, Lady Death, Purgatori, and Dr. Doom
Dethklok versus the Goon
Martha Washington Stranded in Space: Big Guy

and some easter egg cameos:
Nexus #50: Magnus and A-1, Mr. Spock and Capt. Kirk, Jace, Jan and Blip from Space Ghost (as well as Nexus creators Steve Rude and Mike Baron)
WildC.A.T.s #8: Scott Summers & Jean Grey, Clark Kent & Lois Lane, and older versions of Beavis & Butthead


Michael Regan wrote:Oct 5, 2012, 05:34 pm

Some of those bring up an interesting question, hinted at on marvunapp but not explored for obvious reasons. How many of those could possibly occur on Madison Carter's Earth-Crossover (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/e...ossoverall.htm) (Earth-7642) ignoring the fact that most do not include Marvel characters?

Anyone want to take on the task?


zuckyd1 wrote:Oct 5, 2012, 05:51 pm

Michael Regan wrote:Some of those bring up an interesting question, hinted at on marvunapp but not explored for obvious reasons. How many of those could possibly occur on Madison Carter's Earth-Crossover (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/e...ossoverall.htm) (Earth-7642) ignoring the fact that most do not include Marvel characters?

Anyone want to take on the task?


I would, but I might end up looking like your profile pic! :)


Michael Regan wrote:Oct 8, 2012, 07:35 pm

There are quite a few connections that never were as well; one specifically just came to mind.

The sequel to Atlantis: The Lost Empire, Atlantis: Milo's Return was originally meant to be the first few episodes of a television series to be called Team Atlantis. The team would investigate various items in the realms of "mythology/fact". One episode was to feature the appearance of Demona from the cartoon series Gargoyles.

Even if it did air, questions of being valid canon would still come into question.


Michael Regan wrote:Oct 10, 2012, 11:51 am

A quick reminder, mentioned by Stuart a while back, is that a new version of an old favourite is not necessarily a new reality.

If we consider Sherlock Holmes, we have been treated with the Robert Downy Jr movies, the brilliant Benedict Cumberbatch series, and the American version Elementary. These are most certainly alternate realities of the original works.

Conversely, of the multitude of Jane Austen and William Shakespeare adaptations, many are adapted faithfully enough from the original works that they should be considered part of the same reality with the possibility of some minor changes which could be considered ret-con.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Oct 21, 2012, 05:06 pm

Another interesting, headache producing area to look at in terms of the multiverse is the godzilla movies. Many use the first movie at a starting point but then go their own direction or only allow for the most recent few movies plus the original, suggesting something happened to cause history to diverge in multiple directions (this being the Godzilla Earth, one might speculate that radiation is involved). And of course Marvel-616 has its own Godzilla

Interestingly, the American Godzilla movie may exist in one of the Toho universes as a misidentified monster. In one movie, in reference to a sighting in New York the dialogue goes something like this:
"Was that really Godzilla?"
"They say it is, but our experts aren't so sure."


Angelicknight wrote:Oct 21, 2012, 05:17 pm

In Godzilla: Final Wars from Toho the aliens pit the American Godzilla simply know as Zilla against the Japanese Godzilla who kills Zilla with one blast of his atomic breath to which the alien says "Good for nothing Tuna eating monster!"


Michael Regan wrote:Oct 21, 2012, 06:14 pm

Interesting. In many cases continuity, canon, and same reality can often be subjects of debate with fans and creators alike.

Doctor Who is a big one where only the television series can easily be considered to be canon. Everything else is up to the fan.

Star Wars is a strange one where everything is canon, but may correspond to a particular level of canon. Lucas only considers the main six films to be canon but allow everything else to be slotted into defined levels of canon. This, after many years of insisting that the Star Wars Holiday Special did not even exist ;)

I find it funny when a creator later decides that a work, typically a bad sequel, either does not exist or is not canon.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Oct 21, 2012, 06:32 pm

Michael Regan wrote:I find it funny when a creator later decides that a work, typically a bad sequel, either does not exist or is not canon.


The animated Star Trek has been an issue there as well. Gene Roddenberry's company insists that it's not canon (I'm not sure about Roddenberry's own thoughts) despite the fact that many of the shows writers worked on it, most of the cast voiced their characters on it, and some of the episodes were sequels to the live shows. For that reason some fans of the cartoon (myself included) perceive it as canon even though official policy states otherwise.


Eduardo M. wrote:Oct 21, 2012, 08:19 pm

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:The animated Star Trek has been an issue there as well. Gene Roddenberry's company insists that it's not canon (I'm not sure about Roddenberry's own thoughts) despite the fact that many of the shows writers worked on it, most of the cast voiced their characters on it, and some of the episodes were sequels to the live shows. For that reason some fans of the cartoon (myself included) perceive it as canon even though official policy states otherwise.


I could've sworn seeing something that stated the animated series is now in-canon.


Michael Regan wrote:Oct 22, 2012, 02:11 am

The Star Trek animated series was removed from official canon by Gene himself. Paramount has unofficially changed its view of the series since as many canon (and non-canon) works have referenced many things first introduced in the animated series.


zuckyd1 wrote:Oct 25, 2012, 09:58 pm

Speaking of Star Trek: TAS, the episode "The Slaver Weapon" features the Kzin from Larry Niven's Known Space universe. (Niven was the writer of the episode.)


Michael Regan wrote:Oct 26, 2012, 10:43 am

zuckyd1 wrote:Speaking of Star Trek: TAS, the episode "The Slaver Weapon" features the Kzin from Larry Niven's Known Space universe. (Niven was the writer of the episode.)


I believe they are Kzinti (although I have not seen the episode in a while so I may be wrong), but I was not aware that they existed elsewhere which I really like. That places them, and the episode I guess within a Known Space/Larry Niven Multiverse reality and arguably the Star Trek Universe. Nice.


Sidney Osinga wrote:Oct 26, 2012, 01:27 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:I believe they are Kzinti (although I have not seen the episode in a while so I may be wrong), but I was not aware that they existed elsewhere which I really like. That places them, and the episode I guess within a Known Space/Larry Niven Multiverse reality and arguably the Star Trek Universe. Nice.


They were also revealed to an offshoot of the Caitian race, the same species as Lt. M'Ress.


Michael Regan wrote:Oct 26, 2012, 01:47 pm

Sidney Osinga wrote:They were also revealed to an offshoot of the Caitian race, the same species as Lt. M'Ress.


More than simply an appearance, a solid connection to a regular member of the crew.

Time to dig out the DVDs...


zuckyd1 wrote:Oct 26, 2012, 03:25 pm

The Kzinti reappeared in the Star Trek comic strip "The Wristwatch Plantation" (co-written by Niven), which also includes references to Niven's Draco Tavern stories and to his and Jerry Pournelle's novel The Mote in God's Eye—which is set in Pournelle's CoDominium universe.


Stuart V wrote:Oct 26, 2012, 04:48 pm

Chris Claremont and John Byrne are both Niven fans, and have worked Niven's aliens into titles they have produced.

One of the Imperial Guard is Kzin (iirc, it's Kzin singular, and Kzinti plural) - N'rill'irēē
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/nril ... lguard.htm

Plus, we've seen Pierson's Puppeteers
http://www.larryniven.net/puppeteer/nessus.shtml
http://www.larryniven.net/images/ringwo ... _model.jpg
in the Marvel universe at least twice:
once on the Shi'ar homeworld
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZI2JuKzBqd4/T ... popeye.jpg
(the arrow added to the picture is pointing out Popeye, who was included by inker Terry Austin, not penciller John Byrne) seen here in the middle of the picture;
and once in the interstellar Star Stop diner
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/starstop.htm
(4th picture down, bottom left of the picture - also note the Treen from Dan Dare).
And there are Puppeteers in the DC universe too, if the cover of Larry Niven and John Byrne's Ganthet's Tale is to be believed
http://www.bookloveroxford.co.uk/sites/ ... 008_11.jpg
Look at the top right corner's Green Lantern.


Zach Kinkead wrote: Nov 13, 2012, 12:30 am

Here’s another TV one ..

Was watching an episode of Fresh Prince today. There was a cameo by two characters from Diff'rent Strokes.


Eduardo M. wrote:Nov 13, 2012, 12:01 pm

Zach Kinkead wrote:Here’s another TV one ..

Was watching an episode of Fresh Prince today. There was a cameo by two characters from Diff'rent Strokes.


I think the Jeffersons also appeared


Zach Kinkead wrote:Nov 18, 2012, 12:14 am

I’m currently reading Dodger (a rare non-Discworld Terry Pratchett novel). The cast includes both the fictional Sweeny Todd and various real-world Victorian figures like Charles Dickens, Robert Peel, Henry Mayhew, and Benjamin Disraeli.


Michael Regan wrote:Nov 20, 2012, 01:03 pm

Fictional brands are always fun to look at, but perhaps none as in depth as the Morley cigarette appearances. Featured as the brand of Cancer Man in the X-Files, Morley cigarettes have made numerous appearances in unrelated works, although the appearance of a fictional item in them all suggests some kind of Omniversal connection although only slight.

Rather than list appearances of Morleys, wikipedia actually have a pretty good list: Morley's cigarettes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morley_cigarettes).

I don't know the original source of the brand, but in many cases fictional brands are created and stocked for later reuse without paying for a product a second time.


zuckyd1 wrote:Nov 20, 2012, 04:05 pm

Michael Regan wrote:Fictional brands are always fun to look at, but perhaps none as in depth as the Morley cigarette appearances. Featured as the brand of Cancer Man in the X-Files, Morley cigarettes have made numerous appearances in unrelated works, although the appearance of a fictional item in them all suggests some kind of Omniversal connection although only slight.

Rather than list appearances of Morleys, wikipedia actually have a pretty good list: Morley's cigarettes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morley_cigarettes).

I don't know the original source of the brand, but in many cases fictional brands are created and stocked for later reuse without paying for a product a second time.


I think I posted this here before, but there is a company called Independent Studio Services which is a major supplier of props for Hollywood productions. They have created several fictional brands which pop up repeatedly in film and television (Heisler Beer, Playpen Magazine). They even have their own line of comic books: http://issprops.com/graphics/products/c ... omic_books

Here's someone's top 10 list of fictional brands: http://issprops.com/graphics/products/c ... omic_books


Michael Regan wrote:Nov 21, 2012, 08:18 am

That's the company, I could not remember the name. Thanks!


Michael Regan wrote:Dec 11, 2012, 02:58 pm

In the season 6 premiere of The X-Files we briefly see a nuclear plant worker named Homer who is caught sleeping on the job before he is killed by an alien hybrid. An obvious homage to The Simpsons, which could be interpreted as an alternate reality (and live action) version of Homer Simpson.


zuckyd1 wrote:Dec 11, 2012, 07:38 pm

Michael Regan wrote:In the season 6 premiere of The X-Files we briefly see a nuclear plant worker named Homer who is caught sleeping on the job before he is killed by an alien hybrid. An obvious homage to The Simpsons, which could be interpreted as an alternate reality (and live action) version of Homer Simpson.


Mulder and Scully of course had already appeared on an episode of the Simpsons.


Michael Regan wrote:Dec 12, 2012, 08:34 am

zuckyd1 wrote:Mulder and Scully of course had already appeared on an episode of the Simpsons.


Ah, very true. The Simpsons episode was in 1997, and season 6 of The X-Files was in 1998.


Michael Regan wrote:Dec 24, 2012, 11:31 am

Here is another Multiverse observation:

"We Can Remember It for You Wholesale" was origianlly published in The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction in 1966.

This short story was the basis for the 1990 movie Total Recall, which was also recently remade in 2012. Both of these I would tag as being part of a "We Can Remember It for You Wholesale" Megaverse, and the 2012 movie possibly part of a Total Recall Multiverse.

The tricky part of this comes into play when taking the 1996 television series Total Recall 2070 into account. The series merges elements from both Total Recall and Blade Runner into a single reality, making it potentially part of a Total Recall Megaverse and perhaps a Blade Runner Megaverse (avoiding Multiverse for the sake of simplicity... where possible).

Realities (Universes, Multiverses, Megaverses) overlaping :dizzy:


zuckyd1 wrote:Jan 3, 2013, 12:21 am

In the Simpsons episode “Moonshine River”, listed among Mary Spuckler’s New York City neighbors are Holly Golightly (Breakfast at Tiffany’s), Travis Bickle (Taxi Driver), Carrie Bradshaw (Sex and the City), and Ann Marie (That Girl).


Zach Kinkead wrote:Jan 6, 2013, 10:37 pm

If the upcoming crossover between the last two shows is any indication, Frisky Dingo/The Xtacles (Cartoon Network), Arrested Development (Fox), Archer (FX) and Bob’s Burgers (also Fox) all take place in the same universe.

This doesn’t actually make much sense to me though there’s a fair amount of crossover between the people who MAKE the shows.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jan 6, 2013, 11:11 pm

Zach Kinkead wrote:If the upcoming crossover between the last two shows is any indication, Frisky Dingo/The Xtacles (Cartoon Network), Arrested Development (Fox), Archer (FX) and Bob’s Burgers (also Fox) all take place in the same universe.

This doesn’t actually make much sense to me though there’s a fair amount of crossover between the people who MAKE the shows.


How does Arrested Development connect to the other three shows?


Zach Kinkead wrote:Jan 7, 2013, 09:10 pm

The shows are all mostly linked by Archer. Granted Archer and Frisky could be completely different except that they both have similar Mr. Fords…which makes more sense because I’d think the spies in Archer would have referenced the aliens in Frisky…and none of the other shows ever mentioned that the Cold War never ended in Archer.

(Now that I’ve seen the trailer for the new season I wonder if the Bob’s Burgers crossover will actually be a crossover. The Archer version of Bob looks like Sterling Archer with a bad fake mustache so it could just be a cover ID that happens to be similar to one of Jon Benjamin’s other characters.)

zuckyd1 wrote:How does Arrested Development connect to the other three shows?


Creative: Many of the voice actors in Archer played similar roles in Arrested Development.

Character: I actually got that one wrong. As far as I know there is no in-universe connection between Arrested Development and the other shows. Jessica Walter plays Mallory Archer and Lucille Bluth. My Arrested Development knowledge is pretty spotty and I thought Trudy Beekman (the unseen neighbor that Mallory Archer hates) was the same person as the neighbor that Lucille Bluth hates (that’s actually “Lucille Austero”).


Michael Regan wrote:Jan 9, 2013, 09:30 am

Of course, these suggest a shared universe but likely contain counterparts of the same character(s) at best.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Jan 20, 2013, 09:30 pm

Spoilers for last week’s Archer / Bob’s Burgers crossover:

In the Archer universe Sterling Archer IS Bob. He gets amnesia and ends up marring a single mother of three with a family restaurant.


zuckyd1 wrote:Mar 17, 2013, 03:58 pm

The DC series Unwritten and Fables will be crossing over for a five-issue storyline.


Michael Regan wrote:Mar 19, 2013, 03:15 pm

Not exactly an Omniversal observation, but it is remarkable how the X-Files, a series that played heavily with cloning and / or human replication, regularly employed actors to play multiple roles over the course of its 9 year run.


Michael Regan wrote:Mar 25, 2013, 01:28 pm

I'm surprised that this one has not been mentioned yet:

A Firefly class spaceship from the short-live series Firefly can be seen briefly in the sky above Caprica in the first episode of the Battlestar Galactica mini-series. If I remember correctly, some of the special effects team from Firefly worked on Battlestar Galactica.

On the surface, this could suggest a shared reality, but essentially only indicates that Firefly class starships exist in the Battlestar Galactica reality.


Michael Regan wrote:Mar 26, 2013, 06:03 pm

Scott Baio played Charles in the series Charles in Charge. His mother was played by Ellen Travolta, John Travolta's older sister.

Scott Baio previously Chatchi in the series Happy Days. Ellen Travolta also played his mother. Chatchi's real name was Charles.

Charles' last name in Charles in Charge was never revealed.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Mar 26, 2013, 08:23 pm

Reminds me of speculation that Patrick McGoohan’s John Drake (Danger Man) and Patrick McGoohan’s Number Six (The Prisoner) were the same person…which certainly seems possible.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Mar 27, 2013, 01:37 am

Zach Kinkead wrote:Reminds me of speculation that Patrick McGoohan’s John Drake (Danger Man) and Patrick McGoohan’s Number Six (The Prisoner) were the same person…which certainly seems possible.


IIRC McGoohan said no but someone else involved in the show said yes. If 6 isn't Drake he'd probably get along well enough with Drake. The Prisoner of course fits in well with the Omniverse concept because many Earths have locations which aren't the Village but which are Village-like. So such locations could be that world's counterpart to the Village.


Michael Regan wrote:Mar 27, 2013, 12:19 pm

Zach Kinkead wrote:Reminds me of speculation that Patrick McGoohan’s John Drake (Danger Man) and Patrick McGoohan’s Number Six (The Prisoner) were the same person…which certainly seems possible.


Although never answered definitively, giving Number 6 the name of John Drake created a connection regarding rights, which was likely the reason for avoidance.

Conversely, one of the novelisations for The Prisoner indicates that Number 6's name is John Drake.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Mar 27, 2013, 03:29 pm

Zach Kinkead wrote:IIRC McGoohan said no but someone else involved in the show said yes. If 6 isn't Drake he'd probably get along well enough with Drake.


Or they’d try to kill each other.

Zach Kinkead wrote:The Prisoner of course fits in well with the Omniverse concept because many Earths have locations which aren't the Village but which are Village-like. So such locations could be that world's counterpart to the Village.


TV shows like Lost and comics like Morning Glories certainly draw a lot of inspiration from the Prisoner.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Mar 27, 2013, 04:49 pm

Zach Kinkead wrote:TV shows like Lost and comics like Morning Glories certainly draw a lot of inspiration from the Prisoner.


One other very good use of the concept on TV, though short-lived, was Nowhere Man. It didn't take place in a mysterious location, but Thomas Veil was obviously meant to be a persecuted cipher like Number 6. Prisoner references got sprinkled throughout (like Veil being sixth in a line-up).


Stuart V wrote:Mar 29, 2013, 04:42 pm

More evidence that people's dreams can be them subconsiously witnessing events in alternate realities - Wolverine #50/2, '07 shows 616 Wolverine dreaming of events that occurred to 1610 Wolverine in Ultimate Wolverine vs Hulk #1, '06.


captainswift wrote:Mar 29, 2013, 05:36 pm

Stuart V wrote:More evidence that people's dreams can be them subconsiously witnessing events in alternate realities - Wolverine #50/2, '07 shows 616 Wolverine dreaming of events that occurred to 1610 Wolverine in Ultimate Wolverine vs Hulk #1, '06.


Alternately, the entirety of the 1610 universe is just the result of a couple of undercooked borritos Wolverine had the night before.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Mar 29, 2013, 10:38 pm

Stuart V wrote:Alternately, the entirety of the 1610 universe is just the result of a couple of undercooked borritos Wolverine had the night before.


No, that's the explanation for *our* universe!


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 1, 2013, 03:06 pm

The 9th Wonders comic books in Heroes could be considered an alternate reality, but essentially are not. Drawn by Isaac Mendez using his visions of future events, they are interpretations of actual events of the series. The only oddity would be that events became dependant on the characters being able to follow a certain 'destiny' by reading the comic books.

Since the future is changed from what was witness first hand by the time travelling characters (and from what Isaac drew), the future events become an alternate future, or simply a future that does not come to pass if alternates timelines do not exist within this universe.


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 4, 2013, 07:14 pm

Two episodes of Rocket Robin Hood were recycled into Spider-Man episodes. Spider-Man replaced Rocket Robin Hood in the animation footage.

The situations are virtually identical and would represent feature potentially multiversal connections between the two series.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Apr 5, 2013, 12:16 am

Tonight’s Archer had what appears to be an appearance by Captain Murphy from Sealab 2021 (an earlier Adam Reed production). This is a multipart episode so here’s hoping we’ll see the other characters next week.


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 5, 2013, 08:58 pm

Lilo and Stich had crossovers with both The Proud Family and Kim Possible.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Apr 5, 2013, 09:05 pm

Of course the Imaginationland storyline in South Park brought in a large number of characters. It could even be argued that some of them (though obviously not all) were the versions we know brought in temporarily.


zuckyd1 wrote:Apr 5, 2013, 10:00 pm

Michael Regan wrote:Lilo and Stich had crossovers with both The Proud Family and Kim Possible.


as well as Recess and American Dragon: Jake Long


Zach Kinkead wrote:Apr 5, 2013, 10:58 pm

An early episode of the new Scooby Doo: Mystery Incorporated cartoon has a cameo by the Griswolds from the National Lampoon movie series. The series also has enough Easter Egg references to the original Scooby Doo cartoon that it is reasonable to think the shows exist in very similar universes (if not the same one). The original SD was crossover central (Batman, Speed Buggy, Josie and the MAK'DAR Cats, Addams Family. 3 Stooges, ect).

Personally I’ve always been partial to “A Pup Named ‘Scooby Doo’” but I assume that’s just an alternate universe.


zuckyd1 wrote:Apr 5, 2013, 11:11 pm

Zach Kinkead wrote:The original SD was crossover central


Six Degrees of Scooby-Doo: http://crossover.bureau42.com/x.html


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 6, 2013, 11:10 am

zuckyd1 wrote:as well as Recess and American Dragon: Jake Long


Wow, I was not aware of those two.


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 6, 2013, 11:28 am

Zach Kinkead wrote:An early episode of the new Scooby Doo: Mystery Incorporated cartoon has a cameo by the Griswolds from the National Lampoon movie series. The series also has enough Easter Egg references to the original Scooby Doo cartoon that it is reasonable to think the shows exist in very similar universes (if not the same one). The original SD was crossover central (Batman, Speed Buggy, Josie and the MAK'DAR Cats, Addams Family. 3 Stooges, ect).

Personally I’ve always been partial to “A Pup Named ‘Scooby Doo’” but I assume that’s just an alternate universe.


I am not familiar with all the Scooby-Doo series (this being the eleventh I believe), but is there anything solid to indicate that they do or do not share a common continuity/reality?


captainswift wrote:Apr 6, 2013, 05:01 pm

Zach Kinkead wrote:I am not familiar with all the Scooby-Doo series (this being the eleventh I believe), but is there anything solid to indicate that they do or do not share a common continuity/reality?


Everything from the original series to What's New, Scooby-Doo, with the exception of A Pup Named Scooby-Doo and probably Laff-a-Lympics, are close enough to consider the same reality, although they seldom reference each other, and characters like Scooby-Dum or Flim Flam are prominent in one series but never appear in any others. (Although the unfortunate rash of series and direct to video movies where Shaggy, Scooby, and Scrappy drive around not solving mysteries could be argued as non-canon because of the mood shift, there's no real reason not to include them besides them being terrible).

Pup Named Scooby-Doo can't really be the past, since it was clearly set in the 90s, what with Velma's computer skills and similar things. However, certain events in later series indicate it might parallel the past of the Scooby gang.

Shaggy and Sooby-Doo Get a Clue is absolutely a new reality, as is Mystery Inc. (Each is its own reality). The circumstances are too different to reconcile with earlier series.

Laff-A-Lympics takes place on what might be called an "Earth-Crossover" for Hanna-Barbara characters, where characters as dispirate as Scooby-Doo, Yogi Bear, and Fred Flintstone (who guest judged a couple of episodes) all co-exist. And, as all of them appear to be celebrities, it seems like all of their shows air in this world as well, so Scooby is, I guess, an actor playing himself on a TV show where events from his actual life are chronicled. Or something.


zuckyd1 wrote:Apr 6, 2013, 05:06 pm

I assume the live-action films occupy their own reality?


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 6, 2013, 05:47 pm

Zach Kinkead wrote:Everything from the original series to What's New, Scooby-Doo, with the exception of A Pup Named Scooby-Doo and probably Laff-a-Lympics, are close enough to consider the same reality, although they seldom reference each other, and characters like Scooby-Dum or Flim Flam are prominent in one series but never appear in any others. (Although the unfortunate rash of series and direct to video movies where Shaggy, Scooby, and Scrappy drive around not solving mysteries could be argued as non-canon because of the mood shift, there's no real reason not to include them besides them being terrible).

Pup Named Scooby-Doo can't really be the past, since it was clearly set in the 90s, what with Velma's computer skills and similar things. However, certain events in later series indicate it might parallel the past of the Scooby gang.

Shaggy and Sooby-Doo Get a Clue is absolutely a new reality, as is Mystery Inc. (Each is its own reality). The circumstances are too different to reconcile with earlier series.

Laff-A-Lympics takes place on what might be called an "Earth-Crossover" for Hanna-Barbara characters, where characters as dispirate as Scooby-Doo, Yogi Bear, and Fred Flintstone (who guest judged a couple of episodes) all co-exist. And, as all of them appear to be celebrities, it seems like all of their shows air in this world as well, so Scooby is, I guess, an actor playing himself on a TV show where events from his actual life are chronicled. Or something.


From what I remember of Laff-A-Lympics, the majority of the events of the show are so non-influencial, other than the need for time travel in the case of the Flintstones, that they could be considered canon. I have not seen Mystery Inc (the new series, right?) but the references I have read would indicate the same reality. I would have to see them myself to be certain (and I'm tempted to actually go out and get the original series boxed set which is packaged in the van ;)) . A Pup Named Scooby Doo being set in the 90s is not really a firm indicator of non-continuity, which we have learned from Marvel continuity. Consider Tony Stark originally being wounded in Vietnam, which is no longer the case in general understanding.

zuckyd1 wrote:I assume the live-action films occupy their own reality?


The live-action, as I remember it (and would not look forward to watching again, really) is likely a separate reality due to the villain of the first movie.


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 6, 2013, 09:33 pm

The New Scooby Doo Movies (2nd or 3rd series, can't remember completely and I want to work from memory rather than consult other sources which may be incorrect) included may real-world personalities including Tim Conway, Phylis Diller, The Harlem Globetrotters, Laurel and Hardy, Sonny and Cher, Three Stooges, as well as the previously mentioned Batman and Robin, Josie and the Pussycats, and Speed Buggy.

Hannah Barbara later produced the Super Friends series so Batman and Robin may be from the same continuity. Hannah Barbara also created Speed Buggy and had the rights to Archie and related characters, so the latter two may fit their individual established continuities as well.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Apr 7, 2013, 01:21 am

captainswift wrote:Pup Named Scooby-Doo can't really be the past, since it was clearly set in the 90s, what with Velma's computer skills and similar things. However, certain events in later series indicate it might parallel the past of the Scooby gang.


Also dog years make adult Scooby pretty old to be running around haunted houses.

captainswift wrote:Shaggy and Sooby-Doo Get a Clue is absolutely a new reality, as is Mystery Inc. (Each is its own reality). The circumstances are too different to reconcile with earlier series.


Not familiar with Get a Clue. Mystery Inc is a little problematic continuity-wise (also thematically)* but the museum filled with Where Are You? villains make me think the events of the old show still happened … though maybe differently. Perhaps the Mystery Inc gang meet the Batman from the Brave and the Bold cartoon instead of the Adam West-inspired cartoon.

*I’m really enjoying bad-ass Scooby but “bad-ass” and “Scooby” don’t seem like they belong in the same sentence. Also this and Pup are the only shows I’ve seen where the cast have much in the way of individual personalities; I can’t decide which Fred I like better.

Michael Regan wrote:The New Scooby Doo Movies (2nd or 3rd series, can't remember completely and I want to work from memory rather than consult other sources which may be incorrect) included …Josie and the Pussycats,

Hannah Barbara …. had the rights to Archie and related characters, so the latter two may fit their individual established continuities as well.


Well, considering Josie and the Pussycats (and Sabrina the Teenage Witch) are in the shared Archie Comics universe, I’m a little surprised Shaggy hasn’t challenged Jughead to an eating contest yet.

Michael Regan wrote:The live-action, as I remember it (and would not look forward to watching again, really) is likely a separate reality due to the villain of the first movie.


I’d just as soon declare “discontinuity” and forget about it. I will admit that I was a bit amused that they used “you know who” as the villain. I always hated that individual.

(If you don’t know who we’re talking about then look up the spoiler online. Don’t subject yourself to those terrible movies.)


Stuart V wrote:Apr 12, 2013, 01:55 pm

Eduardo M. wrote:As far as adaptations are concerned, is there any case where we can say that one could simply be treated as a fictional work and not a true reality? For ex: Can any of the aforementioned Logan's Run comics be treated as just a story and not an alternate reality?


Stuart V wrote:The DC universe is a fictional world to the people of Milestone, but they still crossed over. Kitty's Fairy Tale world is a fiction within 616, but Nightcrawler still visited it. Barry Allen knew of the Earth 2 Flash as a fictional character, but then he met him. Harold Shea of the Incompleat Enchanter regularly visited worlds which were considered fictional in his own reality. The world seen in 1985 considered the Marvel universe (616) characters to be fictional, but that didn't stop characters from 616 showing up there. The Nth Man universe had Marvel comics, with Alfie O'Meagan being a huge fan, but that didn't stop the Nth Man visiting 616.


Adding in: in Doctor Who, his companions have referenced Star Trek as fictional, but he's also met the Star Trek cast in the recent IDW crossover.

Stuart V wrote:Depending on your viewpoint, either it comes down to infinite realities meaning that any reality someone can conceive of will actually match a genuine alternate reality just by the laws of probability, or people in one reality are subconsciously accessing visions of what is happening in other realities, usually in dreams, and then transcribing those dreams into stories thinking they are fiction while actually unwittingly recording true events.


Michael Regan wrote:Another, possibly the ultimate example, is that the pre-Crisis Earth-Two was only a fictional reality existing in comic books on Earth-One. Barry Allen read about the adventures of Jay Garrick which prompted him to take on the name of the Flash. Quite the surprise for him when he actually managed to get to Earth-Two and meet his fictional hero. If I remember correctly, the comics Barry read were also noted as being written by Gardner Fox who actually wrote the real world comics.


Exactly right, and why I have resurrected this bit of the thread, having just found these panels to illustrate the point:
http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com ... 93b7_r.png
As explicit as you can get - Barry says Gardner Fox dreamed of Earth-2's Flash, and must have been tuning in to actual events happening in that world in those dreams.


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 12, 2013, 02:32 pm

One question I have been pondering for a while now, which would be subject to personal interpretation, is how multiverse and megaverse exist within the DC system of realities.

The original, Pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths Earth-Two does not exist within the current multiverse. I consider it part of the DC Megaverse as would any pre-Crisis reality.

This can arguably be used for the Watchmen mini-series as it was published after Crisis and was not impacted by the event. Elseworld stories not referenced post-52 would also be part of the DC Megaverse. Essentially any non-New Earth story published or produced (adaptations included) following the Crisis on Infinite Earths and before Infinite Crisis and 52 would be part of the Megaverse.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote: Apr 12, 2013, 02:52 pm

Michael Regan wrote:
One question I have been pondering for a while now, which would be subject to personal interpretation, is how multiverse and megaverse exist within the DC system of realities.

The original, Pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths Earth-Two does not exist within the current multiverse. I consider it part of the DC Megaverse as would any pre-Crisis reality.

This can arguably be used for the Watchmen mini-series as it was published after Crisis and was not impacted by the event. Elseworld stories not referenced post-52 would also be part of the DC Megaverse. Essentially any non-New Earth story published or produced (adaptations included) following the Crisis on Infinite Earths and before Infinite Crisis and 52 would be part of the Megaverse.


Well, for a short while DC had the concept of Hypertime, which cited that every version of a DC character existed somehow unless something catastrophic happened to removed all versions of a character entirely (I read somewhere this happened to Black Zero). This is pretty close to what you just described. However, Hypertime hasn't been mentioned in quite some time so it's debatable whether it fits within the current DC framework.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Apr 12, 2013, 03:00 pm

One other interesting thing that fits the Omniverse model pretty well is one episode of Extras. In one episode, Ricky Gervais' actor character Andy Millman appears on Doctor Who as a villain, facing David Tennant's Doctor. Despite the satirical nature of the short scene (the villain is named BAD'DHAKZ, among other sexual references), David Tennant plays the Doctor the way he would in his own show in the sequence and the scene could therefore also fit into the Doctor's own continuity fairly easily.


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 12, 2013, 07:24 pm

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:
Well, for a short while DC had the concept of Hypertime, which cited that every version of a DC character existed somehow unless something catastrophic happened to removed all versions of a character entirely (I read somewhere this happened to Black Zero). This is pretty close to what you just described. However, Hypertime hasn't been mentioned in quite some time so it's debatable whether it fits within the current DC framework.


I believe that DC moved away from the hypertime concept as too confusing, but I am not certain overall.

It is interesting the differences between the Marvel and DC Multiverses. As we know, the Marvel Multiverse concept is built on the 'decision' framework: turn left Earth-a or turn right Earth-b. The DC Multiverse is created at the onset of the creation of all reality, originally by Krona and the new by Mr. Mind.

Altering history within a Marvel Universe creates an alternate universe (for the most part), but altering history within the DC Universe alters the reality.


zuckyd1 wrote: Apr 12, 2013, 10:48 pm

On a recent episode of CSI a character, after finding a secret bunker in the middle of a desert, says "What is this, Lost?" However, Morley cigarettes have appeared on both of these shows, suggesting they might share a common reality.


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 13, 2013, 09:15 am

zuckyd1 wrote:

On a recent episode of CSI a character, after finding a secret bunker in the middle of a desert, says "What is this, Lost?" However, Morley cigarettes have appeared on both of these shows, suggesting they might share a common reality.


Although it is possible that a Lost television program had been based real-life events from the CSI reality, it is more likely that Morley cigarettes exist in both realities much like the X-Men could, at some point, eat at McDonalds. The appearance of Morley cigarettes presents a minor omniversal link between the two.


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 13, 2013, 01:44 pm

After reviewing the Logan's Run list I was inspired to review a similar situation (as I do not have all the Logan's Run media available).

The Time Bandits (1981) movie being the prime release depicts events of the prime Time Bandits Universe.

The Marvel comic book adaptation, although showing some minor deviations, depicts the main events as close to as shown in the movie as to be considered part of the same reality. The same can be said for the novelisation. Therefore, no alternate realities in my opinion.


zuckyd1 wrote:Apr 13, 2013, 03:45 pm

Michael Regan wrote:

Although it is possible that a Lost television program had been based real-life events from the CSI reality, it is more likely that Morley cigarettes exist in both realities much like the X-Men could, at some point, eat at McDonalds. The appearance of Morley cigarettes presents a minor omniversal link between the two.


You mean 90210, Californication, ER, Everybody Hates Chris, Friends, Judging Amy, The L Word, Malcolm in the Middle, Nash Bridges, and That 70's Show DON'T all co-exist in the same reality?
My mind has just been un-blown.


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 13, 2013, 05:38 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:
You mean 90210, Californication, ER, Everybody Hates Chris, Friends, Judging Amy, The L Word, Malcolm in the Middle, Nash Bridges, and That 70's Show DON'T all co-exist in the same reality?
My mind has just been un-blown.


SALTS

24, American Horror Story, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Dick Van MINBARI Show, Heroes, Lost, Mission: Impossible, Warehouse 13, X-Files, ...

The general rule (to me) is to assume a shared reality when evidence is solid, such as presented with the mentioned Lilo and Stitch connections (all being Disney helps), but product placement, even fictional products, are slight connections at best.

On another note, the appearance of Red Apple cigarettes leads more to a shared universe concept due their use in Quentin Tarantino productions only, but even then only slightly more likely than with Morley cigarettes.


zuckyd1 wrote:Apr 13, 2013, 07:05 pm

Michael Regan wrote:

On another note, the appearance of Red Apple cigarettes leads more to a shared universe concept due their use in Quentin Tarantino productions only, but even then only slightly more likely than with Morley cigarettes.


Red Apple cigarettes (as well as Big Kahuna Burger) also appear in Romy and Michele's High School Reunion. (I believe Quentin Tarentino was dating Mira Sorvino at the time.)
Aside from Red Apple and some other fictional brands, there are many other clues that suggest that all of Tarentino's films take place in the same universe.

There is a short story by Wold Newton scholar Win Scott Eckert in the anthology Lance Star—Sky Ranger which contain allusions not only to Red Apple but also to Doc Savage, Fu Manchu, Indiana Jones, K’un-L’un, and a host of other works of fiction, suggesting that there is at least one reality (presumably the Wold Newton reality) where they all coexist.


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 13, 2013, 07:58 pm

Continuing my random review of old shows and movies, the British release of Max Headroom: 20 minutes into the Future was re-recorded with mostly American actors for the pilot of the Max Headroom television series. Despite the cast changes, the story is virtually the same and both versions can be considered representations of the same reality.


zuckyd1 wrote:Apr 13, 2013, 08:40 pm

Michael Regan wrote:
Continuing my random review of old shows and movies, the British release of Max Headroom: 20 minutes into the Future was re-recorded with mostly American actors for the pilot of the Max Headroom television series. Despite the cast changes, the story is virtually the same and both versions can be considered representations of the same reality.


There also was a Max Headroom video game.
And then there's this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KlfcpUfQCk


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 14, 2013, 10:09 am

zuckyd1 wrote:
There also was a Max Headroom video game.
And then there's this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KlfcpUfQCk


and a music video or two, a music video presentation show, commercials... and the Doctor Who pirating incident ;)

Wait... a video game? Have to look that up now.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Apr 14, 2013, 11:44 am

Zach Kinkead wrote:

Tonight’s Archer had what appears to be an appearance by SPOILER! Captain Murphy from Sealab 2021 (an earlier Adam Reed production). This is a multipart episode so here’s hoping we’ll see the other characters next week.


Er, never mind. The guy in Archer is A Captain Murphy from Sealab but not THE Captain Murphy from Sealab. Archer seems to be an alternate past for Sealab 2021 (if Murphy went mad with power instead of just mad)


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 14, 2013, 02:15 pm

Zach Kinkead wrote:
Er, never mind. The guy in Archer is A Captain Murphy from Sealab but not THE Captain Murphy from Sealab. Archer seems to be an alternate past for Sealab 2021 (if Murphy went mad with power instead of just mad)


Ah, alternates that are almost exactly the originals. I would love to watch all the Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law episodes and compare to the original Hanna-Barbera shows used to see if there are any indications that the appearances cannot be within a single continuity, but who has that kind of time and budget?

Maybe some day...


zuckyd1 wrote:Apr 14, 2013, 04:20 pm

Two new listings in the latest issue of Previews:

Rocketeer and the Spirit (IDW)
Army of Darkness vs. Hack/Slash (Dynamite)


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 14, 2013, 04:34 pm

Michael Regan wrote:
Ah, alternates that are almost exactly the originals. I would love to watch all the Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law episodes and compare to the original Hanna-Barbera shows used to see if there are any indications that the appearances cannot be within a single continuity, but who has that kind of time and budget?

Maybe some day...


Given the manor Harvey Birdman is presented in the series, and the suggestions that his real name is Gary Cole (his true identity in the original show) the lead character is likely meant to be the same character. If this can be extended to include the other characters seen in the run of the show, almost every Hanna-Barbara show shares a common continuity. The only hold-out's would be the Flintstones (from the past) and the Jetsons (from the future), and even the Jetsons are referred to as being time travellers (IIRC)


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 14, 2013, 08:23 pm

Latest issues of Sonic the Hedgehog and Megaman are having a cross-over event. Both are published by Archie Comics but were originally distributed by Sega and Capcom respectively. They do not exist in the same Universe but clearly exist within a shared Multiverse within a larger Archie Megaverse.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Apr 14, 2013, 10:41 pm

Michael Regan wrote:
Given the manor Harvey Birdman is presented in the series, and the suggestions that his real name is Gary Cole (his true identity in the original show) the lead character is likely meant to be the same character. If this can be extended to include the other characters seen in the run of the show, almost every Hanna-Barbara show shares a common continuity. The only hold-out's would be the Flintstones (from the past) and the Jetsons (from the future), and even the Jetsons are referred to as being time travellers (IIRC)


The Jetsons in the Birdman episode are from the “future year” of 2002. I’m going to go ahead and say “alternate reality”. Clearly technology had more time to progress because they live in a universe where cavemen coexisted with dinosaurs like in the Flintstones.

zuckyd1 wrote:
Two new listings in the latest issue of Previews:

Rocketeer and the Spirit (IDW)


What is the creative team? That sounds fantastic.

Michael Regan wrote:
Latest issues of Sonic the Hedgehog and Megaman are having a cross-over event. Both are published by Archie Comics but were originally distributed by Sega and Capcom respectively. They do not exist in the same Universe but clearly exist within a shared Multiverse within a larger Archie Megaverse.


And the last Mega Man game was a PC-only crossover with Street Fighter.


zuckyd1 wrote:Apr 15, 2013, 12:08 am

Zach Kinkead wrote:
What is the creative team? That sounds fantastic.


Mark Waid and Paul Smith
http://www.midtowncomics.com/store/dp.a ... RI_1268350


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 15, 2013, 09:04 am

Zach Kinkead wrote:
And the last Mega Man game was a PC-only crossover with Street Fighter.


Given the random nature of most video games I am reluctant to include them an omniversal visions, although I should.


zuckyd1 wrote:Apr 15, 2013, 09:55 am

Michael Regan wrote:
Given the random nature of most video games I am reluctant to include them an omniversal visions, although I should.


But that leaves out so much crossover goodness.
Perhaps if fiction stories come from visions into other realities then video games come from particularly murky visions where the outcome is unclear. :)


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 15, 2013, 01:18 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:
But that leaves out so much crossover goodness.
Perhaps if fiction stories come from visions into other realities then video games come from particularly murky visions where the outcome is unclear. :)


Very true. I speak more of classic gaming such as Donkey Kong or Pac Man which have no true storyline or script. More modern games have more specific scripting which would typically result in the same outcome. The path taken to reach the outcome could be different according to the player. It may be assumed that the full 100% completed game represents the true game reality.

One situation where a possible alternate reality is presented would be with various Mario games when using a warp pipe. In such a case it is likely best to ignore warp pipes in favour of the full game experience and all possible levels.

Another situation would be games such as Infamous where the main character is developed towards different ends as the story progress depending on his actions. In such a case it is likely that the game is presented as two potential realities, but then the question of which is the prime reality may be in question (in the case of Infamous, I believe the side of 'good' is the prime reality)


zuckyd1 wrote:Apr 15, 2013, 02:33 pm

Well I am no expert on video games. In fact, just the opposite.
I was thinking of the All-Stars Racing type games, which could be seen as analogous to Laff-A-Lympics (albeit with presumably much less of a story).
I assume all the Mario games can't exist in the same reality, so perhaps there is a Mario multi-verse?


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 15, 2013, 04:31 pm

I assume all the Mario games can't exist in the same reality, so perhaps there is a Mario multi-verse?
The only one that I is not within the main continuity, that I know of is Super Mario Bros. 2 and then only due to a the end of game revelation that the events take place in a dream. As such, the dreamin Mario could still be part of the main universe and the dream dimension could be a pocket dimension of the main universe.

I guess there are likely contradictions from game to game to indicate an alternate universe, but off the top of my head I cannot think of any.

The Legend of Zelda games on the other hand...


Zach Kinkead wrote:Apr 15, 2013, 06:26 pm

Video Games are kind of tricky.

The recent Hyrule Historia art book (which is awesome) has an official timeline for the Legend of Zelda franchise. Basically it’s three alternate realities with a single shared past that splits depending on the outcome of the Ocarina of Time.

I always sort of assumed that most of the Mario games exist in the same reality … though his many professions (construction worker, plumber, doctor, race car driver, tennis player, golfer, ect) make him an Italian Barbie ;-)

(Actually I often see people joke about the Mario Kart and similar series and what it means for the franchise and the characters involved. When Bowser isn’t trying to kidnap the Princess and kill the Bros, he’s racing go-carts with them. Actually IIRC the plot of one of the Mario RPGs centered around one of Bowser’s kids believing Peach was his mother so read into that whatever you want.)

Then there’s Kid Icarus Uprising. It is filled with references to everything from Metroid to Nintendogs.

And I already mentioned Captain N and Smash Bros a while back.


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 17, 2013, 01:32 pm

The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the 8th Dimension has an interesting reference within it. When they investigate the history of the apparant alien invasion, they discover that it all began in 1938, originally reported by Orson Wells during The War of the Worlds.

Orson Wells' version of The War of the Worlds may be considered an alternate reality to H.G. Wells original novel, the first adaptation that I know of. As such, Buckaroo Banzai could also be considered part of the War of the Worlds Multiverse.


Sidney Osinga wrote:Apr 18, 2013, 04:03 am

There is the ongoing crossover between the Archie Comics versions of Sonic the Hedgehog and Mega Man. Also, Sonic and his friends encountered Spawn, Shadowhawk (Eddie Collins), the Savage Dragon, Union, the Maxx, and Velocity of Cyberforce in Sonic Super Special #7. That issue also had a cameo of a character that looked like the original version of Archie, as well as shadow the resembled Batman, Popeye, and Spider-Man and analogues of Scully and Mulder from the X-Files.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Apr 18, 2013, 08:25 am

Sidney Osinga wrote:There is the ongoing crossover between the Archie Comics versions of Sonic the Hedgehog and Mega Man. Also, Sonic and his friends encountered Spawn, Shadowhawk (Eddie Collins), the Savage Dragon, Union, the Maxx, and Velocity of Cyberforce in Sonic Super Special #7. That issue also had a cameo of a character that looked like the original version of Archie, as well as shadow the resembled Batman, Popeye, and Spider-Man and analogues of Scully and Mulder from the X-Files.


Archie himself is an interesting case. Life with Archie aka Archie: The Married Life has established an Archie multiverse, with all distinct versions of Archie (e.g. original Archie, current version, New Look version, Pureheart, Man from RIVERDALE, etc) occurring in separate realities. So anyone who encounters one version of Archie could conceivably encounter other versions of Archie just as easily.

Another area sup[porting the idea of an omniverse involves his Little Archie incarnation and Little Archie's more fantastic adventures. To elaborate on this further, I'll need to include spoiler tags because it relates to the recently released third Married Life trade: Archie/Earth-Archie Marries Veronica and Archie/Earth-Archie Marries Veronica are recruited by Ambrose to stop a version of Dilton gone bad. Ambrose is unique to the multiverse. The Archies learn that when they used to play with Ambrose while they were all Little, on the one hand they imagined visiting various fantasy worlds but OTOH they actually were transported to those worlds by Little Ambrose, who only later learned his power. Ambrose states lacking awareness of his power at first, he probably took different Little Archies to his fantasy worlds, not realizing that they weren't the same Little Archie. This is a little problematic because for each Little Archie it should be a first meet from Archie's perspective, but that's Ambrose's claims. So in the current Archie framework, in extreme cases like the above, when you imagine yourself in fantastic situations, you can wind up in a world where those situations are real.


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 18, 2013, 01:36 pm

Has Diagnosis: Murder been mentioned?

The show began as a spin-off from Jake and the Fatman and is riddled with guest appearances and allusions to older shows. On one episode, Dr. Sloan walks past Rob Petrie from the Dick van MINBARI Show working as a DJ (though I am uncertain if Rob is actually named). Both are Dick van MINBARI characters.

One specific appearance is Barbara Bain reprising her role from Mission: Impossible clearly indicating a shared reality.

Mike Connors appears as Joe Mannix.

Andy Griffith appears as Ben Matlock.

There is also a cross-over with Promised Land, a spin-off of Touched by an Angel.

There are likely more connections I have missed here.


zuckyd1 wrote:Apr 18, 2013, 03:23 pm

Michael Regan wrote:Has Diagnosis: Murder been mentioned?

The show began as a spin-off from Jake and the Fatman and is riddled with guest appearances and allusions to older shows. On one episode, Dr. Sloan walks past Rob Petrie from the Dick van MINBARI Show working as a DJ (though I am uncertain if Rob is actually named). Both are Dick van MINBARI characters.

One specific appearance is Barbara Bain reprising her role from Mission: Impossible clearly indicating a shared reality.

Mike Connors appears as Joe Mannix.

Andy Griffith appears as Ben Matlock.

There is also a cross-over with Promised Land, a spin-off of Touched by an Angel.

There are likely more connections I have missed here.


Lee Goldberg wrote eight Diagnosis: Murder novels including The Death Merchant. Two of the characters from that novel reappear in Goldberg's later Monk novels.
Oceanic Airlines has also appeared on the show.


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 20, 2013, 02:06 pm

Batman: The Brave and the Bold was a innovative addition to television giving viewers a lighter view of Batman familiar to anyone with any knowledge of the Silver Age of the Hero. The series played host to quite a variety of heroes of the DC Universe with allusions to many old adventures, characters and situations.

One specific situation was the appearances of Wonder Woman, complete with a rendition of the Lynda Carter era theme song. No solid connection, but a reasonable multiversal connection even though the reality does not exist in the current multiverse.

A great connection episode would be the lead in adventure of "Bold Beginnings" with Space Ghost with solid enough characterizations to lead to a shared universe conclusion. This assumes that Space Ghost from Coast to Coast does not alter this possibility.

In the final episode of the series, Batmite rearranges the entire reality breaking the forth-wall, inserting various toy-line only items and even an analogue to Scrappy from the Scooby-Doo franchise.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Apr 20, 2013, 09:20 pm

Michael Regan wrote:A great connection episode would be the lead in adventure of "Bold Beginnings" with Space Ghost with solid enough characterizations to lead to a shared universe conclusion. This assumes that Space Ghost from Coast to Coast does not alter this possibility.


I haven't seen the B&B episode, but I tend to see Space Ghost Coast to Coast as having a separate continuity from the original cartoon (largely due to the comparative intelligence levels and of course the skewed personalities). Plus the Coast to Coast Space Ghost has a real name (Tad Ghostal) that the original doesn't *necessarily* share (the DC comics version is Thaddeus Bach so there are confirmed multiple Space Ghost continuities). I'm not sure if Hanna-Barbera has ever made a definite statement on the matter however.

On the other hand the Brak Show is almost for sure in Coast to Coast continuity as the characterization of both shows matches.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Apr 20, 2013, 10:15 pm

Michael Regan wrote:Batman: The Brave and the Bold was a innovative addition to television giving viewers a lighter view of Batman familiar to anyone with any knowledge of the Silver Age of the Hero. The series played host to quite a variety of heroes of the DC Universe with allusions to many old adventures, characters and situations.


I know it’s not really relevant to the discussion but Adam West voiced two characters in the series; Thomas Wayne and a robot helper Bruce build. Apparently Batman gave the robot his dad’s voice.

Michael Regan wrote:In the final episode of the series, Batmite rearranges the entire reality breaking the forth-wall, inserting various toy-line only items and even an analogue to Scrappy from the Scooby-Doo franchise.


IIRC Larry (Robin’s 5D imp fanboy) did something similar in Teen Titans. Teen Titans’ place in the overall DCAU is debatable. Assuming the Robin on the show is Dick, the show either takes place somewhere between the flashback in “Robin’s Reckoning” and the rest of BtAS or it is its own self-contained universe.


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 24, 2013, 06:40 pm

An interesting consideration regarding character classification: consider Captain Marvel (known oddly enough as Shazam in the current DC continuity.)

The original character, part of the Fawcett Universe (or perhaps Multiverse?) was largely ignored as I remember him when he was merged with the DC Universe, therefore the new character is part of the DC Universe only. As a fun extension, the 1941 release of The Adventures of Captain Marvel was produced when DC passed on the creation of a Superman serial and is part of the Fawcett Multiverse with no solid connection to the DC Universe.

Years later the link between the universes was created when DC acquired the character, but not before.


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 26, 2013, 09:56 am

Another multiversal consideration is M*A*S*H.

The original book series by Richard Hooker takes place at the 8077th and is comprised of three novels with an additional 12 co-written with William Butterworth.

The 1970 feature film takes place in its own reality, based on the first book in the series.

The 1972 television series ran for 11 years and is a seperate reality from the freature film.

AfterMASH and the failed pilot for W*A*L*T*E*R take place in the same reality as the television series.

The television seires Trapper John, M.D. is stated at being part of the movie reality, not the television reality.


zuckyd1 wrote:Apr 26, 2013, 03:05 pm

in the St. Elsewhere episode"Santa Claus is Dead" it is revealed that Dr. Mark Craig is old friends with M*A*S*H's B.J. Hunnicutt.
There also was a M*A*S*H videogame.


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 26, 2013, 07:50 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:in the St. Elsewhere episode"Santa Claus is Dead" it is revealed that Dr. Mark Craig is old friends with M*A*S*H's B.J. Hunnicutt.
There also was a M*A*S*H videogame.


I wish St. Elsewhere were available on DVD. I would love to confirm, dismiss, and effectively categorise the cross-references made in that series.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Apr 26, 2013, 09:04 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:I wish St. Elsewhere were available on DVD. I would love to confirm, dismiss, and effectively categorise the cross-references made in that series.


Season 1 is out, as well as a best-of set.


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 27, 2013, 10:19 am

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Season 1 is out, as well as a best-of set.


17% ... not much to work with


Eduardo M. wrote:Apr 27, 2013, 08:34 pm

Fun Publications which runs the GIJoe and Transformers Collector Clubs has comics in their monthly newsletters. The TF one branches off from the end of the Marvel run.

One of the comics in the Joe newsletter features the Adventure team characters. This month's story includes a Handbook style page featuring a letter sent by M from the James Bond series. In addition to mentioning Bond, the letter also references Harry Palmer, the UNCLE organization, Felix Leiter, and Steed & Peel.


Stuart V wrote:Apr 28, 2013, 06:27 am

Eduardo M. wrote:Fun Publications which runs the GIJoe and Transformers Collector Clubs has comics in their monthly newsletters. The TF one branches off from the end of the Marvel run.

One of the comics in the Joe newsletter features the Adventure team characters. This month's story includes a Handbook style page featuring a letter sent by M from the James Bond series. In addition to mentioning Bond, the letter also references Harry Palmer, the UNCLE organization, Felix Leiter, and Steed & Peel.


There was a biography of John Steed published a few years back that revealed that Steed was bullied by the older Bond when both of them were children at school. Steed and Peel also both appeared in the Doctor Who strip Party Animals, where Peel was seen stopping Captain Britain as he was about to punch Steed. Steed and Peel were also present, unnamed but clearly identifiable, amongst the mourners at a funeral in DC's Prisoner mini-series. And, of course, they made a cameo in Kingdom Come.


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 28, 2013, 08:15 pm

I don't remember many cross-over occurrences with Canadian television programming, but The Listener did have a cross-over with Flashpoint.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Apr 28, 2013, 11:46 pm

Michael Regan wrote:I don't remember many cross-over occurrences with Canadian television programming, but The Listener did have a cross-over with Flashpoint.


Well, Once a Thief (the series) spoofed various shows and movies, so it's possible to consider those spoofs the Once a Thief world's counterparts to the subjects being spoofed. Once a Thief (the series) could of course be seen as a parallel version of Once a Thief (the original movie).

Another interesting thing about the show in terms of multiverse theory is that until the complete series release of a couple years back, the video releases of the final two-parter had a different ending than what aired, but it resembles the aired ending in such a way to support the notion of that being a point of divergence. I'll include spoiler tags so I can elaborate on this. I highly recommend that anyone who has not seen this series but thinks they might later on to not read the hidden stuff:
Spoiler:
In both versions, there was an explosion at the end. As aired, the three main agents died. In the video releases they managed to escape, though how they survived is never revealed. From a parallel Earth standpoint, some subtle detail likely allowed the video release versions a few key extra seconds that the TV versions didn't have, or the path of the explosion was somehow different, or something protected them somehow, something like that. Regardless, nearly everything else was the same, including how the explosion appeared from the outside. So the differences are very "What If?" like.


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 29, 2013, 01:28 pm

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Well, Once a Thief (the series) spoofed various shows and movies, so it's possible to consider those spoofs the Once a Thief world's counterparts to the subjects being spoofed. Once a Thief (the series) could of course be seen as a parallel version of Once a Thief (the original movie).

Another interesting thing about the show in terms of multiverse theory is that until the complete series release of a couple years back, the video releases of the final two-parter had a different ending than what aired, but it resembles the aired ending in such a way to support the notion of that being a point of divergence. I'll include spoiler tags so I can elaborate on this. I highly recommend that anyone who has not seen this series but thinks they might later on to not read the hidden stuff:

Spoiler:
In both versions, there was an explosion at the end. As aired, the three main agents died. In the video releases they managed to escape, though how they survived is never revealed. From a parallel Earth standpoint, some subtle detail likely allowed the video release versions a few key extra seconds that the TV versions didn't have, or the path of the explosion was somehow different, or something protected them somehow, something like that. Regardless, nearly everything else was the same, including how the explosion appeared from the outside. So the differences are very "What If?" like.


Not being familiar with the show, and likely I will not be able to view the original ending (I see that it is available as an alternate on the DVD release):
Spoiler:
when the agents were killed in the original ending were they confirmed to be dead (were bodies presented or other such evidence) or is it possible that the survival was simply something that was not presented in the original but was still a possibility?


BTW, the 1996 film was actually a remake of an earlier 1991 release from Honk Kong, both by John Woo. If the events of both films are congruent, they could be considered the same reality (I have not seen the 1991 film, but I remember some of the 1996 film).

There is no apparent connection to the earlier three films which have used the same title.

I would think that the parodies within the series could be considered analogs of the originals, depending on the context of how they are presented.


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 29, 2013, 06:45 pm

Back to personal observations...

Perhaps not Omniversal, the Ayreon project by Arjen Anthony Lucassen presents listeners with a full story for each of the 6 progressive rock album and manages to tie each of them together into a singular reality... sort of. An unrelated theme album was also released under the banner and a 7th connected album us due to be released this year.

Arjen also released a solo album in 2012, also a concept album, with a sly nod to the film Blade Runner narrate on the album as a character named Dr. Voight Kampff.

On the first disc of the two disc set is a song titled "Where Pigs Fly". The lyrics tell of how it was discovered that that we live in multiple universes. The realities are indicated in the lyrics as follows

    Darwin defended creation
    Einstein travelled in time
    Columbus discovered India
    And Shakespeare couldn’t rhyme

    O.J. pleaded guilty
    Manson made parole
    Reagan won five Oscars
    And Meryl none at all

    Elvis was a vegan
    Dylan never got stoned
    Alice was known as Vincent
    And Bowie was just Jones

    Michael looked like Michael
    Keith drank only juice
    Madonna was a virgin
    And Jimi played the flute

    Bond’s drink was stirred not shaken
    Darth Vader had no son
    Dorothy was still in Kansas
    And Clint didn’t own a gun

    Rocky had no sequels
    Arnold never came back
    ET dialed the wrong number
    And Dolly had no rack.

As you can see the alternate realities are both real and 'fictional'. Equally interesting, Arjen covers four popular rock songs on the second CD providing "alternate versions" of "Welcome to the Machine" originally by Pink Floyd, "Veteran of the Psychic Wars" originally by Blue Öyster Cult, "Battle of Evermore" originally by Led Zeppelin, "Some Other Time" originally by The Alan Parsons Project, and "I'm the Slime" originally by Frank Zappa.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Apr 29, 2013, 09:10 pm

Michael Regan wrote:Not being familiar with the show, and likely I will not be able to view the original ending (I see that it is available as an alternate on the DVD release):
Spoiler:
when the agents were killed in the original ending were they confirmed to be dead (were bodies presented or other such evidence) or is it possible that the survival was simply something that was not presented in the original but was still a possibility?


Actually for the complete series release, it's the other way around: the original ending is on the episode, with the previous video release ending (VHS and DVD of Brother Against Brother) being the bonus feature on the complete series.
Spoiler:
It's extremely unlikely that they survived in the original. In the second ending the Director looks back shortly after the explosion and sees them coming out of the building. In the original ending she never looks back, extremely mournful music plays and about 1 1/2 minutes of flashbacks appear, then we see her continuing to walk away as the building continues to burn. No sign of the agents, even though a fair bit of time has now passed. Given the amount of time that passes without then coming out, the sad beyond sad music, and the fact that something made the Director look back a lot sooner in the second ending, and the fact that the show is not connected to any larger comic book style universe, the death is probably about as certain as possible without seeing their roasted bodies. Also, the explosion is pretty huge so their escape in the video version is a bit of a reach. I'll have to doublecheck and see that version some time; they may have toned that part down. The original has it as quite the inferno. In any event, there is at least one confirmed change (the director looking back), so even if they survived, it's still an alternate reality as the Director didn't learn about their survival then.


The original ending was actually posted to YouTube (jump to the 2 minute mark for the major spoilers part; don't watch unless you really want to see how the series ends). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSWvGGTvm7s

I've been meaning to watch the original movie. Will have to check it some time and see how they compare.


zuckyd1 wrote:Apr 29, 2013, 09:30 pm

Well, as long as we're bringing music into the mix: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WgT9gy4zQA


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 29, 2013, 09:42 pm

Which brings up another interesting concept: Director's Cut and Extended Cut versions of movies. Essentially, I'm referring to the home video release which has been extended with additional footage which was not used or available in the theatrical release. In some cases these have been extended for marketability, in others they have been 'restored' to the original vision of the director.

The majority of these include additional information and scenes without subtracting from the original theatrical release. In some cases, this would also include enhanced effects or similar remastering. Examples would include The Lord of the Rings trilogy, Daredevil, Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Live Free or Die Hard, the original Star Wars trilogy, etc.

In other cases, the new version changes things enough that it cannot be the same movie as the original. Examples here would include Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut, Highlander II: Renegade Version, and more.

Yet is still other instances the placement within the original universe is arguable depending on your point of view, as with the various releases of Blade Runner.

This concept would not include releases with additional features of deleted scenes as these cannot be considered canon in any respect.

As for music, The Wall by Pink Floyd would qualify as a singular alternate reality.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Apr 29, 2013, 11:02 pm

Michael Regan wrote:This concept would not include releases with additional features of deleted scenes as these cannot be considered canon in any respect.


Well, since dreams are considered alternate realities, at least sometimes, I tend to view deleted scenes a bit differently.

If the deleted scene doesn't conflict with the movie, then I see it as a Blade Runner type thing were the viewer can decide for themselves if the scene still happens in between scenes of the movie. A good example is Batman Forever, where a deleted scene reveals what Bruce read in his parents' diary that disturbed him. The movie actually plays better with that scene so I tend to see it as canon even though it falls outside the movie proper.

If the deleted scene conflicts with the movie, I tend to see it as a fleeting reality that comes into existence and then fades out again once the scene ends (or sequences of scenes, if a multi-scene subplot).

A slight tangent: that's also how I tend to view Sleepaway Camp IV, which exists on DVD only as multiple takes of a few scenes (the filming was never finished); there we see a reality starting to form multiple times but never becoming a fully realized reality.


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 30, 2013, 08:53 am

Not a bad take on the events. I tend to dismiss deleted scenes since they are unofficial, but I certainly like that concept keeping in mind that a dreamscape is tied to the reality from which it originates, like a pocket dimension.

Let's consider the Evil Dead series for a moment. The latest remake is obviously an alternate reality from the original movies, but what of the original movies themselves?

The first movie was clearly a horror movie, while Evil Dead 2 was more of a dark comedy. Many elements of the first movie actually made up the first half of the second movie and, as I remember it, was altered enough to be considered a different reality. Army of Darkness is the same reality as Evil Dead 2 even though the end of Evil Dead 2 and the beginning of Army of Darnkess do not match up, but that can be (not so easily) dismissed as a retcon.


Michael Regan wrote:Apr 30, 2013, 01:40 pm

Does anyone remember F/X from 1986 starring Bryan Brown and Brian Dennehy? It had a sequel in 1991 and a television series which ran for two seasons. Despite many changes in the atmosphere, not to mention the cast, it is reasonable to assume that they all share a common reality.


Michael Regan wrote:May 2, 2013, 09:57 am

Here is one I've been contemplating for a while now, and I would love Stuart's take on in (along with anyone else who wishes to of course)

Consider the well loved, and often adapted classics like The War of the Worlds, The Invisible Man, Alice in Wonderland, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, and countless others. In terms of origin, these works are the prime realities which spawned the alternate realities seen in movies, television programs, comics, etc. In some cases, we could be witness to a retcon (not likely with such classics) or even a faithful adaptation which could be considered part of the same reality.

But how would we classify older tales like Greek mythology, Norse mythology, Grimm fairy tales, and Mother Goose stories. The actual origins are often lost to history and thus the actual prime reality has been lost as well. When we consider the alternate versions of these characters, it is less likely there will be analogues, which would create countless connections between many realities including the Marvel Universe with the prominance of Thor and Hercules among others.


Michael Regan wrote:May 5, 2013, 10:44 am

Guess that one killed discussion... I'll let it stew for now.

I just started watching Freakazoid, and although it is completely goofy and breaks the fourth wall regularly, the first episode featured a shadowed cameo by Batman, referring to the Dark Knight from the Batman: The Animated Series. A bumper features the Animaniacs, but continuity of the bumper is questionable.


Michael Regan wrote:May 8, 2013, 11:17 am

Going through old Doctor Who magazines...

The events of H.G. Wells' War of the Worlds appear to have occured within the Doctor Who Universe.


Michael Regan wrote:May 13, 2013, 01:03 pm

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:If the deleted scene doesn't conflict with the movie, then I see it as a Blade Runner type thing were the viewer can decide for themselves if the scene still happens in between scenes of the movie. A good example is Batman Forever, where a deleted scene reveals what Bruce read in his parents' diary that disturbed him. The movie actually plays better with that scene so I tend to see it as canon even though it falls outside the movie proper.


I just discovered an excellent example which fits your view of deleted scenes with the recent Star Trek movie. As young Kirk speeds away from the police, he passes a boy on the side of the road and calls out "Hey, Johnny!" but only in the deleted scene do we learn that Johnny was actually meant to be George, his older brother. Since the scene involving the two boy was cut, the character's name was changed.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:May 13, 2013, 08:58 pm

The other reason why I think of deleted scenes as being partly canonical, even if just briefly, is some DVDs have a "branching" option where you can watch the deleted scenes in their proper place in the movie instead of separately (there's usually a slight pause and sometimes some picture quality difference to further indicate that this isn't simply a director's cut). Terror Firmer is one example of this.


Michael Regan wrote:May 14, 2013, 09:15 am

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:The other reason why I think of deleted scenes as being partly canonical, even if just briefly, is some DVDs have a "branching" option where you can watch the deleted scenes in their proper place in the movie instead of separately (there's usually a slight pause and sometimes some picture quality difference to further indicate that this isn't simply a director's cut). Terror Firmer is one example of this.


I've only had one DVD that did that, and at that I cannot remember which it was


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 8, 2013, 12:22 pm

Michael Regan wrote:That is a good point, once worth keeping in mind in many respects.

Similarly, it is easy to relate to many of the characters in shows when reality is similar to our own but we can never forget that the realities, obviously, are not our own. In such instances certain "mistakes" can likley be forgiven.

Not the best example, but one that comes to mind at the moment, is the Captain American film of 1990. Captain America is activated in WWII he displays an American Flag with 50 stars. In our reality the flag should only have 48 stars but perhaps Alaska and Hawaii had joined earlier in this reality.


In an opposite direction of my older example, the crew if the Zeus II in The Martian Chronicles (1980) display an American flag patch on their sleeves with only 48 stars. As the story takes place on Mars post-2000 (2007 I think) the simplest solution to this i that the United States never acquired Alaska and Hawaii as states in this reality.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jun 8, 2013, 12:54 pm

Michael Regan wrote:In an opposite direction of my older example, the crew if the Zeus II in The Martian Chronicles (1980) display an American flag patch on their sleeves with only 48 stars. As the story takes place on Mars post-2000 (2007 I think) the simplest solution to this i that the United States never acquired Alaska and Hawaii as states in this reality.


Was that an error, or was it intentional?


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 8, 2013, 04:03 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:Was that an error, or was it intentional?


I assume they were error in both cases, a lack of research with Captain America, and a possible lack of counting ability with The Martian Chronicles.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jun 8, 2013, 04:16 pm

The Captain America one isn't that surprising, but the Martian Chronicles error is just odd.


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 8, 2013, 04:53 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:The Captain America one isn't that surprising, but the Martian Chronicles error is just odd.


I guessing that the flag was made custom for the uniform and the alternating star style of the 50 star flag was likely simplified into the easier 6 x 8 grid of the earlier version believing that it would not be noticed.


Stuart V wrote:Jun 11, 2013, 07:12 pm

If we consider Sherlock Holmes, we have been treated with the Robert Downy Jr movies, the brilliant Benedict Cumberbatch series, and the American version Elementary. These are most certainly alternate realities of the original works.
Alternate realities to the original stories, but, at least in the case of the BBC's Sherlock and the American Elementary, not necessarily different realities from one another, or, at least, not yet.

At first glance you'd think Elementary and Sherlock couldn't share a single reality. After all, we have two different versions of the same character. Or do we? Let's look at the specific problems, which, based on one season of Elementary and two short series of Sherlock thus far, only really amount to having five characters of similar names, to whit:
Sherlock Holmes (both shows)
John Watson and Joan Watson (each Sherlock's respective friend)
Irene Adler (both shows)
Moriarty (both shows)
Mrs. Hudson (both shows)

But hang on - let's start with the most problematic of those, Sherlock Holmes himself. What if both Sherlocks are related? Cousins, for example. That explains the surnames right off the bat, and would account for the brilliant minds too - there are several geniuses in the family. Being close relations would account for the identical first names too - both named after the same person, either a family friend or ancestor (common practice in the past to name children after grandparents or uncles). The BBC Sherlock claims to be the only consulting detective in the world, but both Sherlocks are antisocial jerks in many ways, and there's no question that if they did co-exist in a single reality (never mind a single city) they'd (a) not get on too well with one another; (b) be rivals; and (c) probably discount the other as inferior to themselves. Just look at the relationship between BBC's Sherlock and his brother Mycroft. The Sherlocks would happily fail to mention their namesake relative to their respective Watsons, acting like they didn't exist, especially now they live in different cities and don't have to bump into one another at Scotland Yard. One Sherlock might even have taken up detective work out of petty rivalry with the other, after the other thought of it first - an "anything you can do, I can do better" attitude.

What about Watson? Well, neither John nor Joan Watson is that uncommon a name. So it could just be coincidence. And perhaps it isn't - maybe it is deliberate. If we take the above "rival cousin" route to explain the Sherlocks, then we have two rival branches of a family of brilliant jerks - so Elementary Sherlock's father is aware of BBC Sherlock having partnered up with Dr. John Watson and then, when he is checking for a sober companion for his son, he spots the similarly named Joan Watson on the list of candidates, and it amuses him to pick her over the other options because of that.

Mrs. Hudson? A minor character in Elementary, more major in Sherlock - but a common enough name. Coincidence.

Irene Adler?
Spoiler:
Well, that was an alias in the case of Elementary, used by the female Moriarty. Perhaps she simply knew of (occasional client of?) and then appropriated the name of the BBC dominatrix version.
The two Moriartys would unquestionably know about one another, so BBC's Moriarty would then have found it amusing to use dominatrix Adler with "his" Sherlock, well aware of the impact Elementary Adler and Holmes had on one another. BBC Sherlock was either unaware that his cousin had been involved with a woman of the same name (not friendly and not keeping up to date on his life) or, more likely, simply put it down to coincidence.

And finally Moriarty. Both geniuses, both psychopaths, both consulting criminals (and, at least in the BBC version, claiming to be the only one). They must have known of one another, but both kept to the shadows mostly, so even those who knew the name Moriarty would have generally assumed there was just the one of them,
Spoiler:
especially with Elementary's female Moriarty deliberately having underlings passing themselves off as her to maintain the deception that she is male.
The simplest explanation is that they, like the Sherlocks, are related - siblings perhaps. And psychos or not, they won't kill their sibling. Or, especially since Elementary's version hints that Moriarty is an alias, perhaps they are unrelated, and Elementary's version decided to use BBC's version's name as a taunt at their rival criminal consultant. Elementary Sherlock only heard the name Moriarty recently, if I am correct (I haven't seen all the episodes), so Elementary Moriarty might only have started using that alias after
Spoiler:
BBC Moriarty died
- that way if Elementary Sherlock was aware of their cousin's activities, they'd be inclined to think the Moriarty they were dealing with was their cousin's
Spoiler:
supposedly deceased
foe. I favour the Moriartys being related though, simply because BBC Moriarty committed crimes to alleviate his boredom, and fixated on his two Holmes brothers as a way of keeping himself amused - he'd have been unable to resist taking on a worthy criminal rival like the Elementary Moriarty.

Is the above a stretch? Sure, but not that big on one. It'll almost certainly get harder to work and eventually blown the longer both series run, as more and more matching names from the original canon begin cropping up in two shows. Certainly, the creators don't intend them to be the same reality. But I just wanted to demonstrate in how multiple shows (or films or books) which might initially seem incompatible for sharing one reality can often be fitted together with minimal effort taken to explain apparent contradictions.


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 11, 2013, 08:06 pm

An awesome summation, Stuart, I love that kind of thinking.

On another note, the 1973 series Shazam! is noted for being the first time DC actually used the Captain Marvel character since it last been used by Fawcett 20 years earlier. The dynamics of the story indicate that the earlier Fawcett publications are part of the same continuity, taking place on Earth-S. Similar action was taken when DC utilized the Quality Comics characters to form the Freedom Fighters on Earth-X and the Charlton characters of Earth-4 (although the Crisis on Infinite Earths caused that earth to only directly exist within the DC Universe for a short time)

Of more interesting note for this thread specifically, analogues of Edith and Archie Bunker appear in Shazam! #5 (September 1975)


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Jun 14, 2013, 12:22 pm

One other interesting show from an Omniverse perspective is Mystery Science Theatre 3000. For the uninitiated, the premise of the TV series is that a guy (Joel in early seasons, Mike in later seasons) is held hostage in a satellite and with his robot friends is forced to watch bad movies.

If all the movies are considered different worlds, then it could be argued that we have two realities (the MST3K world and our own) viewing the same third reality (the movie within the show).


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 14, 2013, 03:48 pm

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:One other interesting show from an Omniverse perspective is Mystery Science Theatre 3000. For the uninitiated, the premise of the TV series is that a guy (Joel in early seasons, Mike in later seasons) is held hostage in a satellite and with his robot friends is forced to watch bad movies.

If all the movies are considered different worlds, then it could be argued that we have two realities (the MST3K world and our own) viewing the same third reality (the movie within the show).


I have not seen the series, I only know of it due to reputation (it does not air here). Does Joel/Mike watch the original movies or are they altered in some way? We do have a show which had aired where they condensed a movie to about half-an-hour and redubed it, essentially creating a new movie.


captainswift wrote:Jun 14, 2013, 10:26 pm

Michael Regan wrote:I have not seen the series, I only know of it due to reputation (it does not air here). Does Joel/Mike watch the original movies or are they altered in some way? We do have a show which had aired where they condensed a movie to about half-an-hour and redubed it, essentially creating a new movie.


The movies are trimmed for time (and sometimes content, cutting out swears and content that didn't meet standards for daytime TV), but are not altered in terms of story or dialogue. The movie is aired as-is (aside from cuts), with Joel and the 'bots talking over the film with their riffing.

Note, however, that events of the movies --despite being movies in the MST3K reality-- sometimes also have happened in their universe, as Joel and the 'bots often meet characters from the films in the framing segments.


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 15, 2013, 11:13 am

captainswift wrote:The movies are trimmed for time (and sometimes content, cutting out swears and content that didn't meet standards for daytime TV), but are not altered in terms of story or dialogue. The movie is aired as-is (aside from cuts), with Joel and the 'bots talking over the film with their riffing.

Note, however, that events of the movies --despite being movies in the MST3K reality-- sometimes also have happened in their universe, as Joel and the 'bots often meet characters from the films in the framing segments.


Unaltered is great, but cross-appearances is... odd. Would the movies be based on events that occur within the MST3K universe or could they be actual accounts of events? Either way, with the cross-over aspect in place it may be possible to either place the respective movies within a singular reality or conclude that, although they are altered only in minor ways that the movies are alternate versions of the original productions allowing the characters to exist in a shared reality.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Jun 15, 2013, 01:03 pm

captainswift wrote:Note, however, that events of the movies --despite being movies in the MST3K reality-- sometimes also have happened in their universe, as Joel and the 'bots often meet characters from the films in the framing segments.


I'm a more recent convert so haven't run across any of those ones. Can you cite specific cases of this? Many episodes are on YouTube so with a bit of context we might be able to figure this out from an omniverse perspective (acknowledging this disregards the show's wishes: the theme song specifically says "Just repeat to yourself it's just a show / I really must relax").

Regardless I think in most cases it can be seen as two different realities viewing the same third one: even just from the first box set it was clear that the characters had opinions on the works of specific directors and were perceiving the works as fiction created by less than stellar artists.

Actually come to think of it, the simplest explanation, beyond the one offered in the theme, is that the MST3K world draws in aspects of other realities for brief periods before they return to their native world, hence, for example, the characters being able to respond to letters mailed from our world.


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 15, 2013, 05:12 pm

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Actually come to think of it, the simplest explanation, beyond the one offered in the theme, is that the MST3K world draws in aspects of other realities for brief periods before they return to their native world, hence, for example, the characters being able to respond to letters mailed from our world.


So, a Watcher type deal viewing alternate realities and possibly having a portal to have the characters physically visit... all through unknown means. Without seeing the series, this makes sense and I like.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Jun 15, 2013, 10:35 pm

Michael Regan wrote:So, a Watcher type deal viewing alternate realities and possibly having a portal to have the characters physically visit... all through unknown means. Without seeing the series, this makes sense and I like.


It also helps that at first there were two mad scientists; both eventually left but one remained for many years, acquiring a henchman for quite some time after his partner left. Once you put one or two mad scientists into a comedy show, pretty much anything is up for grabs, particularly since they were the ones conducting the whole torture by bad movies experiment.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Jun 15, 2013, 11:21 pm

Edits are alternate realities?

So now we have to keep track of which Star Wars universe Han shot first in?

That does raise some interesting questions about special editions, tv edits, and extended/directors cuts of movies and the tendencies of comic companies (especially DC lately) to edit collected and digital editions.



Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Jun 16, 2013, 02:00 am

Zach Kinkead wrote:Edits are alternate realities?

So now we have to keep track of which Star Wars universe Han shot first in?

That does raise some interesting questions about special editions, tv edits, and extended/directors cuts of movies and the tendencies of comic companies (especially DC lately) to edit collected and digital editions.


If it's a minor edit (and most MST3K changes are minor) or if the added scenes don't contradict the original version in any big way, I tend to see it as one reality. Just as we tend to ignore minor dialogue changes in flashbacks or between the end of one issue and the start of the next. Perhaps there's some cosmic filter that sometimes misinterprets looks and sounds a little.

If however an edit changes the story somehow then it might be an alternate reality. But I also like the idea (postulated by Mark Waid with Hypertime) that sometimes an alternate reality can be merged back into the original. A good example is Daredevil (the movie). In the Director's Cut he makes at least one notable different decision, suggesting a divergence. However, by the end of the movie things have started to realign enough that by the time of the Elektra movie things have merged.


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 16, 2013, 09:21 am

Exactly. In many cases an edit can be considered a retcon. Consider writing summary of the original film, then writing a summary of a director's cut of the same movie. Then review them to see if they can overlap and perhaps certain parts can be inserted or removed to fit the corresponding version. If they can fit together, they should be considered the same reality. the Star Wars versions should be considered the same reality, Blade Runner versions are debatable.


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 16, 2013, 05:05 pm

Another possible consideration is that any licensed character appearances in various multiple realities could be considered to be the same character unless conflictions are evident.

Stepping away from obvious characters, consider all the appearances of Santa Claws. He is a magic being and may actually not only traverse the entire globe during one night, but perhaps due to the speed required actually traverses the multiverse.


captainswift wrote:Jun 16, 2013, 05:57 pm

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:I'm a more recent convert so haven't run across any of those ones. Can you cite specific cases of this?


In "The Brain That Wouldn't Die", they meet the bodyless head of Jan (whom they call "Jan in the Pan"), the victim in the movie they're watching.

In "Prince of Space", Krankor, the villain from the movie, comes to visit.

In MST3K: The Movie (where they watch "This Island Earth"), they call one of the aliens from the movie on video phone.

And most importantly, in "Manos: The Hands of Fate" (MST3K's most notorious movie), the deformed handyman Torgo visits Deep 13. He shows up again in a few later episodes as well.

If you can track any of the Thanksgiving Day bumpers from "Night of the Blood Beast", several characters from different movies (sort of) drop by Dr. Forrester's for Thanksgiving.

(This isn't an exhaustive list, but it includes only episodes readily available commercially)


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 16, 2013, 06:14 pm

Are the bumpers also available?

I may try to hunt these down if I can figure out a series/DVD list.


captainswift wrote:Jun 16, 2013, 06:20 pm

The bumpers are included as a bonus feature on the DVD release of that episode.

Also: after a quick look on the MST3K wiki, I may actually have listed all the movie characters who appeared in the host segments. Go my memory!


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 16, 2013, 06:43 pm

captainswift wrote:The bumpers are included as a bonus feature on the DVD release of that episode.

Also: after a quick look on the MST3K wiki, I may actually have listed all the movie characters who appeared in the host segments. Go my memory!


and jumping into the wiki it is evident that not all episode are available and appear to be in a unique order


captainswift wrote:Jun 16, 2013, 07:09 pm

Michael Regan wrote:and jumping into the wiki it is evident that not all episode are available and appear to be in a unique order


It's true not all episodes are available (they have to negotiate DVD rights for movies individually, and often the copyright-holders don't want to license it for home distribution), but the order isn't terribly important. They make callbacks to old jokes and episodes, but continuity isn't really a thing.


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 16, 2013, 08:25 pm

captainswift wrote:It's true not all episodes are available (they have to negotiate DVD rights for movies individually, and often the copyright-holders don't want to license it for home distribution), but the order isn't terribly important. They make callbacks to old jokes and episodes, but continuity isn't really a thing.


Rights, true, although many are likely beyond copyright at this point I would guess.

BTW, does anyone know how Elvira's Movie Macabre compared to this series?


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 23, 2013, 01:11 pm

What should the standard be regarding anthology shows like The Twilight Zone, The Outer Limits, Tales from the Darkside, etc.?

Although there is no real reason to have a shared reality, my view is that all the episodes should be contained within a single reality (unless events suggest otherwise). This would, using The Twilight Zone as an example, place the three series within a single reality and potentially place other media releases (comic books, novels) within the same reality. One glaring inconsistency may be with Twilight Zone: The Movie which revamps classic stories from the original series, but considering the overall premise of the show it is not beyond reason to have similar events occur more than once within the same reality.


Stuart V wrote:Jun 23, 2013, 01:37 pm

Michael Regan wrote:What should the standard be regarding anthology shows like The Twilight Zone, The Outer Limits, Tales from the Darkside, etc.?

Although there is no real reason to have a shared reality, my view is that all the episodes should be contained within a single reality (unless events suggest otherwise). This would, using The Twilight Zone as an example, place the three series within a single reality and potentially place other media releases (comic books, novels) within the same reality. One glaring inconsistency may be with Twilight Zone: The Movie which revamps classic stories from the original series, but considering the overall premise of the show it is not beyond reason to have similar events occur more than once within the same reality.


Some episodes clearly preclude being part of a shared reality - generally those set in the future, such as I, Robot (told in two different versions in The Outer Limits) or Time Enough At Last (a Twilight Zone tale with a last man on Earth, post-apocalypse, setting). However, any that are set "modern day" in the "real world" could potentially be a shared reality, so long as the events depicted don't end up having world-wide ramifications that couldn't be ignored in other stories - incidents like The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street can fit, as there's no evidence that the alien invasion plot there got further than a single town, and we can allow the similarly titled and themed The Monsters Are on Maple Street from the 2002 series. There's even some stories in later series that are sequels to ones in older series - It's Still a Good Life follows on from It's a Good Life.

There's even strong evidence in one series that many of its stand-alone episodes are all taking place in the same reality - The 1990s Outer Limits story The Voice of Reason features Army Intelligence reporting on several of the alien incursions seen in prior episodes of the series, and a subsequent episode involving a time traveller shows her on trial for meddling, mostly involved with interfering with some of the incidents seen in earlier episodes.


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 23, 2013, 03:15 pm

Stuart V wrote:There's even strong evidence in one series that many of its stand-alone episodes are all taking place in the same reality - The 1990s Outer Limits story The Voice of Reason features Army Intelligence reporting on several of the alien incursions seen in prior episodes of the series, and a subsequent episode involving a time traveller shows her on trial for meddling, mostly involved with interfering with some of the incidents seen in earlier episodes.


The only problem with the overlaying Outer Limits episode (flashback episode) was that the specifics of the event(s) were altered to fit a singular reality. Even thought the changes were sizable, they could be attributed to retcon.


Stuart V wrote:Jun 23, 2013, 03:48 pm

Michael Regan wrote:The only problem with the overlaying Outer Limits episode (flashback episode) was that the specifics of the event(s) were altered to fit a singular reality. Even thought the changes were sizable, they could be attributed to retcon.


Were the specifics changed, or did the Army report just mess up some of the details? Unreliable narrator syndrome is a great get-out-of-jail card for continuity problems.


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 23, 2013, 03:55 pm

Stuart V wrote:Were the specifics changed, or did the Army report just mess up some of the details? Unreliable narrator syndrome is a great get-out-of-jail card for continuity problems.


It has been a while since I watched them, but one specific story had to do with a prison on either an alien planet or at some point in a dystopian future.


Stuart V wrote:Jun 24, 2013, 04:10 pm

Working on defining crossover types. Here's what I have thus far:

1) Appearance type
Analogues and pastiches – not genuine intereality crossovers, but the appearance of characters who are clearly based on ones from other realities. While they don’t provide strong evidence of inter-reality connections, they can be seen (at least by those not determined to try and keep things artificially separated) as weak evidence, showing that events and beings seen in one reality are mirrored in another.

Unofficial cameos – characters who go unnamed but are clearly intended to be the heroes and villains from other comic series; generally present without explanation of how they got there, and, per the unofficial bit, always without permission. May or may not have dialogue which hints at their identity.

Official cameo – characters from another comic present as faces in the crowd, but with official permission from whoever owns them (indicia can usually confirm this). Distinguished from the next category in that they don’t have any dialogue.

Guest appearance – characters officially present as a face in crowd, but they have dialogue, though no major role in the adventure.

Guest star – character officially present and they play a main role in the story.

2) How they got there – since many times the established realities of characters doesn’t fit the realities established for other characters.

One world – they all do share a world, apparently. Sometimes hard to distinguish from the below, at least until you get an chain of such connected characters and finally find that different ends of the chain can’t share a reality.

Counterpart, slips and overlaps– no explanation is given for how they could all be together, they just share a world, despite their solo milieus appearing to preclude this. Either one or other characters seen is a counterpart to the one normally seen in solo stories, or someone has slipped out of their own reality and not noticed it, or two realities have temporarily overlapped – in the last example people tend not to notice the discrepancies between their realities because histories and / or memories get altered to fit.

Reality jump – at least one participant has skipped from their native reality to another one, and is well aware of it.

Colliding Amalgamated Crises – realities have been violently overlapped, causing character histories to change to fit. In more dangerous cases, individual characters from one reality can also be overlapped with individual characters from another. These tend to be depicted as dangerously unstable mergers, and if they aren’t separated then it risks a disastrous collapse of the local multiverses.

A few examples of the above:
Hellboy's origin in Hellboy: Seed of Destruction depicts John Byrne's Torch of Liberty being present, and then Hellboy's ally Abe Sapien appears in Babe 2 (taking on Monkeyman and O'Brien's foe, the Shrewmanoid, which brings in yet another creator's characters). But later series of Hellboy and BPRD really aren't all that compatible with the world of superheroes that includes Babe, Danger Unlimited, etc - where were these heroes during the War on Frogs, for example? Not only that, but Hellboy has teamed up with the TMNT, without, iirc, any evidence of dimensional travel - they all appear to share a single world (Hellboy also met the Savage Dragon, but I haven't read that one so no idea how they came to co-exist). Since that seems improbable, the most likely options are that Hellboy's world has a counterpart of Torch of Liberty, and that there are Hellboy counterparts in Byrne's world, a TMNT world, etc; alternatively, if "main Mignolaverse" Hellboy ever refers back to acknowledge these other crossovers, then we may have slips and overlaps, temporary and unnoticed reality mergers.

A crossover that encompasses multiple crossover types listed above, despite being relatively small, is Savage Dragon vs Savage Megaton Man. Megaton Man (and later his allies, the Megatropolis Quartet) travel from their own reality, the Megahero Universe, to the Image Universe (which name the characters actually use, having first seen it as an image on a scanning device). So we've got reality jumping. But we also have pastiches, as "Johnny Redbeard's Nixed Men" are the villains of the piece (John Byrne's Next Men, if you couldn't work it out), with members who are clearly intended to be She-Hulk, Namor and Superman.


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 24, 2013, 08:24 pm

I guess "mentions" could fit in somewhere as well, that is a character from a "supposed" alternate reality is mentioned but does not specifically appear. This could also count in the analogue category if you consider the final episode of the short lived series Strange Luck which makes reference to an FBI agent named Muldur [sic]. I would expect that this would be rare, as with some other categories, but still valid.


Stuart V wrote:Jun 25, 2013, 12:07 pm

Michael Regan wrote:I guess "mentions" could fit in somewhere as well, that is a character from a "supposed" alternate reality is mentioned but does not specifically appear. This could also count in the analogue category if you consider the final episode of the short lived series Strange Luck which makes reference to an FBI agent named Muldur [sic]. I would expect that this would be rare, as with some other categories, but still valid.


Yes, I'd agree. But you might even want to split that further - mentions where the character is clearly intended to be a real person, vs mentions where it might be referencing a real person but equally might be referencing popular culture, vs pop culture references (which don't count as crossovers, but are noteable as they sometimes seem to clash with later crossovers - e.g. characters in Dr. Who have mentioned Star Trek as a TV show, yet they've also recently had a crossover). Iirc, an example of the middle type was an early episode of Charmed where the characters encounter vampires and wonder aloud where Buffy is when you need her - intended as a pop culture reference, it could be taken as a real world reference, hinting at an unseen prior adventure where the Charmed trio met the Slayer. An example of the first is in the BBC TV show Luther, when the title character tells a subordinate to get in touch with Detective Munch in New Yorks Special Victims Unit.


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 25, 2013, 01:12 pm

Stuart V wrote:Yes, I'd agree. But you might even want to split that further - mentions where the character is clearly intended to be a real person, vs mentions where it might be referencing a real person but equally might be referencing popular culture, vs pop culture references (which don't count as crossovers, but are noteable as they sometimes seem to clash with later crossovers - e.g. characters in Dr. Who have mentioned Star Trek as a TV show, yet they've also recently had a crossover). Iirc, an example of the middle type was an early episode of Charmed where the characters encounter vampires and wonder aloud where Buffy is when you need her - intended as a pop culture reference, it could be taken as a real world reference, hinting at an unseen prior adventure where the Charmed trio met the Slayer. An example of the first is in the BBC TV show Luther, when the title character tells a subordinate to get in touch with Detective Munch in New Yorks Special Victims Unit.


Of course, using silver age DC Comics as a template for this oddity, the fictional reality could actually be the same "real" reality as detailed in the classic Flash #123 (September 1961). This may actually work in the case of the Doctor Who/Star Trek crossover as well.


Stuart V wrote:Jun 25, 2013, 01:36 pm

Michael Regan wrote:Of course, using silver age DC Comics as a template for this oddity, the fictional reality could actually be the same "real" reality as detailed in the classic Flash #123 (September 1961). This may actually work in the case of the Doctor Who/Star Trek crossover as well.


Almost certainly.


Stuart V wrote:Jun 25, 2013, 04:09 pm

Another crossover story that features multiples levels of involvement: Shi / Cyblade: The Battle for Independents has Shi and Cyblade team up, so on the level of interaction we are looking at them both being Guest Stars. After initially meeting in what seems like a shared reality, they are brought to another place by unknown entities, where they encounter Cerebus, who has reality jumped and knows it. Cyblade and Shi then realise they've now reality jumped too. However, when Cerebus makes them both fly (using some magical energy he's been given by whoever brought him there), Shi is shocked to be flying (people just don't fly), and Cyblade more blase (she knows plenty of people who fly); comparing notes they conclude that when they first met, prior to the reality jump that brought them to this new realm, they didn't share a common reality after all, but that "we're from entirely different realities that intersected for a moment...and now we're in a place that's different from either!" So we have a definite case of a temporary reality overlap that wasn't noticed by the residents of the two worlds.

The two heroines enter a once verdant land now turned into swamp, dubbed "Wallace Woods" and discover the remains of other heroes who came here before them, only to be destroyed - clearly visible, but not identified, is Captain America's shield, Batman's mask, Iron Man's helmet, Thor's hammer Mjolnir and a robot head that I feel I should recognise but don't (C3PO?) - Shi makes some unsubtle comments that are a metatextual jab at company-owned characters. The heroines encounter Beanworld's Mr Spook, just before being absorbed by an entity that feeds off creativity (another heavy-handed metatextual poke at corporate-owned comics), and wake to find themselves being absorbed, with nearby monitors showing images of other realms, including a character from Maus (I believe - definitely a humanoid mouse in a style like Maus) and Omaha, Cat Dancer. Luckily other heroes from different independent comics arrive to help, and they all work together to defeat the villain - one of this group is clearly an unidentified Spider-Man (in black costume), swinging by on a web while noting "these guys are a lot cooler than the people I usually hang with!"

By the end of the issue we have
Guest stars: Cyblade, Shi, Atomik Angels, Cerebus

Guest appearances: Fone Bone (he has no dialogue, but his appearance is bigger than a cameo, though not enough to get to guest star status imo), Mr. Spook, the Tick, Megaton Man, Ginny from Stray Bullets, Johnny Blowtorch from Crusade, Kid Death and Gabriel from Event Comics, Katchoo from Strangers in Paradise, Eudaemon, Wolff and Byrd, Milk and Cheese, Cascade fromn Sovereign Seven, Scud the Disposable Assassin, Madman and Johnny the Homicidal Maniac - all of whom have dialogue, though in many cases it is a single line and a single panel appearance.

Official cameos include: Grifter from Wildstorm, Hellboy, Glory, Hellshock, Kabuki, Samaritan from Astro City, Seth from A Distant Soil and Usagi Yojimbo - mostly single panels, and no dialogue, but all officially there with disclaimers noted regarding appearance with creator permission.

Unofficial cameos - Spider-Man, Omaha the Cat Dancer and someone from Maus

Unofficial nods - Iron Man, Thor, Batman, Captain America


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 25, 2013, 06:16 pm

Well done! I can't find Spider-Man, personally, but I don't doubt that he is there somewhere.

I agree the robot head looks like C3PO, but he would be an odd addition. The expression on the face reminds me of something else though. Just for the heck of it I asked for clarification through the Bill Tucci website.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jun 25, 2013, 07:29 pm

This site suggests some additional cameos, although I don't know if they're accurate: https://www.mycomicshop.com/search?TID=151341


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 25, 2013, 07:33 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:This site suggests some additional cameos, although I don't know if they're accurate: https://www.mycomicshop.com/search?TID=151341


Ah, there's Spider-Man


Stuart V wrote:Jun 25, 2013, 07:33 pm

Michael Regan wrote:Well done! I can't find Spider-Man, personally, but I don't doubt that he is there somewhere.


He's on the top right of the two page spread of heroes attacking the villain of the story.


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 28, 2013, 08:58 am

Michael Regan wrote:What should the standard be regarding anthology shows like The Twilight Zone, The Outer Limits,
Tales from the Darkside, etc.?


Part of the oddity in classifying of these episodes, other than putting them into a single Twilight Zone universe (where applicable), is there are many which are multiversal in relation to original short stories previously published.


Zack Kinkead wrote:Jun 29, 2013, 02:17 am

I don’t know why anyone would assume episodes of the Twilight Zone and similar shows take place on the same world unless it was shown otherwise. If anything I’d assume the opposite. Likewise for old-school anthology comics like Amazing Adventures / Amazing (Adult) Fantasy; the Dr. Droom (aka Dr. Druid), Spider-Man, and a smattering of the monster stories about creatures now inhabiting Monster Island are “real” but I doubt the validity of stories about things like the shape shifting alien clouds turning into a common household item, a major NYC landmark defending the city from attack, and the alternate conclusion to the cold war.

I guess we can add this week’s Project X Zone for 3DS to the list of crossover video games. As with PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale, I don’t actually know much about most of the properties represented but the Mega Man and Street Fighter franchises alone give us plenty of links to other things. Heck, once the new Smash Bros comes out next year, Mega Man will have a link to the larger “Nintendo Universe” that extends beyond old episodes of “Captain N: Gamemaster”


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 29, 2013, 10:27 am

Zach Kinkead wrote:I don’t know why anyone would assume episodes of the Twilight Zone and similar shows take place on the same world unless it was shown otherwise. If anything I’d assume the opposite. Likewise for old-school anthology comics like Amazing Adventures / Amazing (Adult) Fantasy; the Dr. Droom (aka Dr. Druid), Spider-Man, and a smattering of the monster stories about creatures now inhabiting Monster Island are “real” but I doubt the validity of stories about things like the shape shifting alien clouds turning into a common household item, a major NYC landmark defending the city from attack, and the alternate conclusion to the cold war.


Well, with Twilight Zone it is easier in a classification sense to have a handful of realities than over a hundred. With some episodes referencing others it suggests links as well. Oh, and it is Twilight Zone, Twilight Zones ;)

Zach Kinkead wrote:I guess we can add this week’s Project X Zone for 3DS to the list of crossover video games. As with PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale, I don’t actually know much about most of the properties represented but the Mega Man and Street Fighter franchises alone give us plenty of links to other things. Heck, once the new Smash Bros comes out next year, Mega Man will have a link to the larger “Nintendo Universe” that extends beyond old episodes of “Captain N: Gamemaster”


Mega Man just crossed over with Sonic in comic books.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Jun 29, 2013, 12:30 pm

Its "What If", not "What Ifs" but no one is saying THOSE are all the same world. I see the Twilight Zone the same way.

All this video game stuff reminded me of something; in the 90s there was a fighting game with Iron Man and X-O Manowar. Its strange to me that - as far as i know - these two comic characters have only crossed over in games.


Stuart V wrote:Jun 29, 2013, 01:06 pm

Zach Kinkead wrote:Its "What If", not "What Ifs" but no one is saying THOSE are all the same world. I see the Twilight Zone the same way.


The difference is that most of the What If worlds are unquestionably different from one another. Many of the Twilight Zone episodes appear to take place in "the real world", so the only thing preventing them sharing a reality are the events within the stories themselves.

Zach Kinkead wrote:All this video game stuff reminded me of something; in the 90s there was a fighting game with Iron Man and X-O Manowar. Its strange to me that - as far as i know - these two comic characters have only crossed over in games.


http://www.comics.org/issue/273728/cover/4/

Zach Kinkead wrote:I don’t know why anyone would assume episodes of the Twilight Zone and similar shows take place on the same world unless it was shown otherwise. If anything I’d assume the opposite. Likewise for old-school anthology comics like Amazing Adventures / Amazing (Adult) Fantasy; the Dr. Droom (aka Dr. Druid), Spider-Man, and a smattering of the monster stories about creatures now inhabiting Monster Island are “real” but I doubt the validity of stories about things like the shape shifting alien clouds turning into a common household item, a major NYC landmark defending the city from attack, and the alternate conclusion to the cold war.


But that's exactly the point - ALL the stories from the old-school anthology comics take place in 616, EXCEPT where the events depicted wouldn't fit with established 616 history (and even those may have happened, just not quite as depicted). And this isn't just based on wishful thinking, as way more of those monster stories have been confirmed as being 616 by other stories than you realise. Writers and artists keep working them into later stories.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jun 29, 2013, 06:48 pm

Stuart V wrote:But that's exactly the point - ALL the stories from the old-school anthology comics take place in 616, EXCEPT where the events depicted wouldn't fit with established 616 history (and even those may have happened, just not quite as depicted). And this isn't just based on wishful thinking, as way more of those monster stories have been confirmed as being 616 by other stories than you realise. Writers and artists keep working them into later stories.


How broadly does this principle apply, particularly to modern day comics? For example, are the Jane Austen and Marvel Illustrated adaptations to be considered 616? There's nothing really to prevent them from being so.


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 29, 2013, 11:08 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:How broadly does this principle apply, particularly to modern day comics? For example, are the Jane Austen and Marvel Illustrated adaptations to be considered 616? There's nothing really to prevent them from being so.


That is an excellent question, and I look forward to Stuart's view. Personally I would say they are not as they are specific adaptations rather than general adaptations. Specific, meaning self contained as opposed to general which are essentially worked into the existing reality.

That being said, as they are published by Marvel they could be considered part of the Marvel Universe, of perhaps the wider Marvel Megaverse, at the very least.


Stuart V wrote:Jun 30, 2013, 05:11 am

zuckyd1 wrote:How broadly does this principle apply, particularly to modern day comics? For example, are the Jane Austen and Marvel Illustrated adaptations to be considered 616? There's nothing really to prevent them from being so.


Michael Regan wrote:That is an excellent question, and I look forward to Stuart's view. Personally I would say they are not as they are specific adaptations rather than general adaptations. Specific, meaning self contained as opposed to general which are essentially worked into the existing reality.

That being said, as they are published by Marvel they could be considered part of the Marvel Universe, of perhaps the wider Marvel Megaverse, at the very least.


At first glance you'd think they wouldn't be, as they are adaptations of novels. But we gladly accept that other novels are part of 616 - Dracula and Frankenstein most notably. At least some of the events of The War of the Worlds took place in 616. The Fu Manchu novels took place in 616 in some form, as do the Solomon Kane and Conan novel to comic adaptations. So did the Raffles and Sherlock Holmes stories. The conceit is always that the novels are slightly inaccurate accounts of real events. Ironically, it's easier to work older (public domain) stuff in, not just because copyright issues don't arise, but because in a world of colourfully clad superhumans, it is easier to explain their absence in historical stories - they just didn't exist yet.

So, are they 616? Maybe. Certainly, in most cases there are no reasons they couldn't and shouldn't be, other than it seeming a little weird at first glance to have Elizabeth Bennet and Mr Darcy co-existing alongside superheroes...when everyone knows they should be fighting zombies instead.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jun 30, 2013, 04:41 pm

What is Raffles' connection to 616?


Stuart V wrote:Jun 30, 2013, 05:02 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:What is Raffles' connection to 616?


He met the Whizzer back in All-Winners Comics #8.


Michael Regan wrote:Jun 30, 2013, 06:54 pm

I had, oddly enough, forgotten about Conan and his solid connection with the Earth-616 reality, so that detailed explanation makes perfect sense. Thanks Stuart.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Jul 1, 2013, 10:51 pm

Thanks, Stuart. I didn’t know that Iron Man/X-O comic existed.

I’ve been reading the Dresden Files books lately. It mostly avoids crossovers. Star Wars, Star Trek, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, and various comics (mostly Spider-Man) are all mentioned as being fictional. However the world does draw on a lot of the classic fantasy and horror that EVERYONE does and we’re told that the works of people like the Grimms and Lovecraft are at least partially true. Dracula is an especially interesting case; the monster existed in the Dresden universe but the Stoker book – which might be complete fiction – was commissioned by one group of vampires (incubi and succubi) as an instruction manual on how to kill a rival vampire species that were similar to the literary Dracula.

PS: The Statue of Liberty from Amazing Adult Fantasy should totally join the Mighty Avengers since apparently that story is in continuity now.


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 2, 2013, 08:26 am

Zach Kinkead wrote:PS: The Statue of Liberty from Amazing Adult Fantasy should totally join the Mighty Avengers since apparently that story is in continuity now.


For those unfamiliar with the story, the Statue of Liberty fought off a race of giant aquatic humanoids which can be read about here: Undersea Giants (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/unde ... samfan.htm). The action was likely a one time event produced by unknown external forces.


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 2, 2013, 12:38 pm

As I listen to the Doctor Who audio productions, I've just finished the 8th Doctor Adventure Sword of Orion where there has been an android war progressing in the Orion system. This may suggest a link to the film Blade Runner, but is more likely an homage to the 1982 film.

"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time ... to die"


Stuart V wrote:Jul 2, 2013, 01:23 pm

Michael Regan wrote:As I listen to the Doctor Who audio productions, I've just finished the 8th Doctor Adventure Sword of Orion where there has been an android war progressing in the Orion system. This may suggest a link to the film Blade Runner, but is more likely an homage to the 1982 film.

"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time ... to die"


It is unquestionably a reference to Blade Runner. Sword of Orion was originally recorded as a fan audio play with Nick Briggs as the Doctor (this version of the Doctor was later seen in the comics in Party Animals). And the audio visuals fan site (http://www.justyce.org/) has an interview with Nick Briggs regarding the story which includes this quote:
"That was very much in the flavour of Blade Runner... the idea of human beings rejecting androids and persecuting them. I thought, What if the androids got organized? The answer was, The Orion War!"


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 2, 2013, 02:17 pm

And, asside from no solid references to indicate a shared reality, the time frame of the war is obviously a little to lengthy given that the events of Blade Runner take place in 2019 (Roy's action, at most 4 years earlier in 2015) and the events of Sword of Orion are in 2495, which believe led to the Cyber Wars which began in 2526. It is possible that the uprising took almost 500 years but not likely.


Stuart V wrote:Jul 2, 2013, 03:01 pm


Michael Regan wrote:And, asside from no solid references to indicate a shared reality, the time frame of the war is obviously a little to lengthy given that the events of Blade Runner take place in 2019 (Roy's action, at most 4 years earlier in 2015) and the events of Sword of Orion are in 2495, which believe led to the Cyber Wars which began in 2526. It is possible that the uprising took almost 500 years but not likely.


Yes, the mention is a homage rather than an attempt to link the two series.

Thinking of the above reminds me that a solid link exists between Blake's 7 and Doctor Who. Chris Boucher, who wrote the Doctor Who story Robots of Death and script edited Blake's 7 for a while did a novel and then audio series sequel to Robots of Death called Kaldor City which featured a character called Carnell, a "psycho-strategist" - but Carnell previously appeared in a Blake's 7 story Boucher wrote, and in the audio plays he is portrayed by the same actor. In the audios another character, Kaston Iago, realises Carnell is an offworlder hiding out in Kaldor City from the Federation because there are no other psycho-strategists on Kaldor; it's an occupation peculiar to the Federation, something Iago knows because he is also a fugitive hiding out from them. Iago is played by Paul Darrow, who played Avon in Blake's 7, and he plays the character identically to how he played Avon, and he claims he killed the Butcher Of Zircaster, something Avon did in Blake's 7. Whether or not Iago is Avon, Carnell in Kaldor City is unquestionably the Carnell from Blake's 7.


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 2, 2013, 03:22 pm

I've just barely gotten into the Big Finish audios, and for novels I have only read the first season's worth of adaptations, but that bit or trivia will certainly spur me on for more.

I have to watch Blake's 7 again as it is... been too long.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Jul 2, 2013, 07:03 pm

Michael Regan wrote:For those unfamiliar with the story, the Statue of Liberty fought off a race of giant aquatic humanoids which can be read about here: Undersea Giants (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/unde ... samfan.htm). The action was likely a one time event produced by unknown external forces.


...like the Ghostbusters


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 2, 2013, 07:27 pm

Zach Kinkead wrote:...like the Ghostbusters


At least that had an explanation and was not completely random :crazy:


Zack Kinkead wrote:Jul 2, 2013, 07:34 pm

I figure the French gave us a giant copper golem as a Trojan horse and it decided it liked America better anyway … even if we did leave it out in the elements where it turned green.

USA! USA! USA!


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 2, 2013, 07:39 pm

Zach Kinkead wrote:I figure the French gave us a giant copper golem as a Trojan horse and it decided it liked America better anyway … even if we did leave it out in the elements where it turned green.


... but not in the redverse


Zach Kinkead wrote:Jul 4, 2013, 08:43 pm

Crowd scenes are fun. I was watching Family Guy: Blue Harvest (the first Star Wars parody) and saw Roger (American Dad), Bender (Futurama), and Coach McGuirk (Home Movies) in the Cantina scene.

And I’m perfectly aware we could be here forever if we started into Family Guy references.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 12, 2013, 02:57 pm

http://jonnegroni.com/2013/07/11/the-pixar-theory/


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 12, 2013, 04:21 pm



I've always wanted the Pixar movies to occur in a singular universe (all the Disney thearical animated features as well, but that is simply a wish of mine).


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 12, 2013, 04:27 pm

Michael Regan wrote:I've always wanted the Pixar movies to occur in a singular universe.


There was already prior supporting evidence, what with all the recurring easter eggs. But this sort of cohesive(?) theory is new, as far as I know.


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 12, 2013, 05:45 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:There was already prior supporting evidence, what with all the recurring easter eggs. But this sort of cohesive(?) theory is new, as far as I know.


I think there is another I stumbled across a couple weeks ago. I'll see if I can find it.

ah, it was limited to this: http://www.geekosystem.com/headcanon-cars-walle/


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 12, 2013, 07:01 pm

I think I mentioned that if we consider franchises which appear in multiple media, the primary media is the prime universe and, unless they can be proven to be interpretations of or additions of the main media, the additional media would be alternate Earths in the Multiverse.

Additionally, if we consider Doctor Who, the prime reality is the television series. The presentation of the television series (as with the majority of movies, television programs, and comic books) projects the viewer directly into the story. The same can be said for audio dramas. Alternatively, a third party narrative novel can be considered a retelling of a story by non-participant and may be subject to inaccuracies. As such, even if events do not completely match the story may still qualify as being part of the prime reality. If the inaccuracies are too many, then the story would have to correspond to an alternate Earth event.


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 13, 2013, 07:17 pm

Conversely, if the original media is a novel, such as The Wizard of Oz or Harry Potter, it is the prime reality. If the adaptation does not match the original closely enough, it becomes an alternate Earth within the multiverse.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 13, 2013, 08:19 pm

So is the prime reality for Buffy the 1992 movie?


Zach Kinkead wrote:Jul 13, 2013, 09:02 pm

Zach Kinkead wrote:I’ve been reading the Dresden Files books lately. It mostly avoids crossovers. Star Wars, Star Trek, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, and various comics (mostly Spider-Man) are all mentioned as being fictional.


…or maybe not. I’m reading Ghost Stories and Bob tells Harry Dresden that Spider-Man IS real somewhere out in another universe. Bob should know, seeing as he’s a Spirit of Intellect. Of course, Bob being Bob, he may just be messing with Harry.

zuckyd1 wrote:So is the prime reality for Buffy the 1992 movie?


Technically, I guess. The show is all anyone really cares about*. There are too many continuity issues for it to be the same universe as the show. She’s a High School Senior in the movie and a Sophomore at the beginning of the show. The movie’s events as retold in the comic seem to be “official” in regards to the show but the comics might be more of an “expanded universe” for the show anyway.

*In the same way that Conan the Barbarian is more about the comics and movies than it is the original novel.


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 14, 2013, 09:06 am

As Zach stated, yes. The prime reality is not necessarily the most popular or most visited, it is simply what came first. Buffy is one of the best examples but there are plenty more... but having been out of bed for 5 minutes none come to mind at the moment.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Jul 14, 2013, 12:56 pm

If we’re being honest with ourselves then we’d see most comic book superheroes as this. I know people who are Iron Man fans that have never read the comics. A lot of things we associate with Superman didn’t exist until the Fleischer cartoons and the radio shows. I even know a few people who still think of Adam West as the “real” Batman. More people know these characters from tv shows, movies, and video games than they do the comics.


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 14, 2013, 01:01 pm

Zach Kinkead wrote:If we’re being honest with ourselves then we’d see most comic book superheroes as this. I know people who are Iron Man fans that have never read the comics. A lot of things we associate with Superman didn’t exist until the Fleischer cartoons and the radio shows. I even know a few people who still think of Adam West as the “real” Batman. More people know these characters from tv shows, movies, and video games than they do the comics.


Very true, and I love such trivia. IIRC, Superman did not fly until the cartoons because it was easier to animate. Kryptonite first appeared in the radio series, I believe. More recently, Agent Coulson now appears in the comic books when he was an original character created for the Marvel Cinematic Universe.


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 14, 2013, 01:30 pm

Any exception could be indicated by the media itself, specifically this would be the DC Universe. The "primary" reality would be the Golden Age Earth-Two, but the Silver Age indicated that it, on Earth-One was the prime reality. Following the events of the Crisis on Infinite Earths, everything was wiped out and what was eventually to be known as New Earth, or Earth-0 became the prime reality (this ignores any possible changes made during Infinite Crisis and 52, of which I cannot conclusively state that there actually were any made to New Earth). Following the events of Flashpoint we have a "new" New Earth which is the current prime reality.

Now, in terms of multimedia we could indicate that the Fleischer Superman series was based on the Golden Age Superman, Superman: The Movie (1978) was based on the Silver Age Superman... but neither of which are the current prime reality.


Stuart V wrote:Jul 14, 2013, 01:32 pm

Michael Regan wrote:Very true, and I love such trivia. IIRC, Superman did not fly until the cartoons because it was easier to animate. Kryptonite first appeared in the radio series, I believe. More recently, Agent Coulson now appears in the comic books when he was an original character created for the Marvel Cinematic Universe.


Kryptonite was introduced so the radio series actor could go on holiday. In the story, a weakened Superman (the actor's stand-in) spent the next few episodes incapacitated and only capable of groaning in pain.

There's plenty of other bleed-overs from TV, films, etc back into the source material - Herbie, X-23 and Firestar all originated in cartoons before moving to the comics, Blade's civilian name comes from the movies, Jimmy Olsen was named in the Superman radio show, having only made a brief anonymous cameo in the comics prior to this (or, if you like, he got introduced in the radio, and then a background character was retconned into being him), Superman worked for the Daily Star but that was changed in the Superman newspaper strip (which, while a comic of sorts, still demonstrates a case of a secondary source modifying the primary), the Riddler had only a handful of appearances in the 1940s before becoming one of Batman's forgotten minor foes until his appearance in the TV show caused his comic strip revival and increased prominence, etc.

In non-comics media, Bernard Cornwell subtly modified his portrayal of his hero Sharpe in the novels to better fit the actor Sean Bean who had begun portraying the character on TV.

Sherlock Holmes is frequently portrayed wearing a deerstalker hat, Inverness cape and smoking a curved Meerschaum pipe - but the original tales never mention him wearing such clothes or using such a pipe. The deerstalker and cape originate from a couple of Strand Magazine illustrations accompanying stories set in the country, but as an English gentleman of the period he'd never wear it in the city, and most illustrations depict him without the cape and with either a bare head or wearing other headgear. As for the pipe, he's seen smoking regular straight pipes in the illustrations. The curved pipe, and the initial popularisation of the deerstalker image, come from the first stage Holmes, William Gillette, who allegedly found it easier to enunciate his lines with the Meerschaum clenched in his lips than he did with a regular pipe (alternatively, he found it less of a strain on his jaw to hold the Meerschaum in place for prolonged periods - accounts vary). The Basil Rathbone movies then locked the image in place, to the extent that official statues of Holmes in London (outside Baker Street Tube Station), Edinburgh and Moscow now include them, and the tiles in Baker Street Tube Station that are emblazoned with a silhouette of Holmes' head do likewise:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Baker ... xcr_wb.jpg


Zach Kinkead wrote:Jul 14, 2013, 02:59 pm

Stuart V wrote:There's plenty of other bleed-overs from TV, films, etc back into the source material - Herbie, X-23 and Firestar all originated in cartoons before moving to the comics,


And Harley Quinn!

Stuart V wrote:Blade's civilian name comes from the movies,


So did Rogue’s name (sorta). Actually naming her Anna after the actress who played her in the movies seems to be something that first showed up in fanfics.

Stuart V wrote:the Riddler had only a handful of appearances in the 1940s before becoming one of Batman's forgotten minor foes until his appearance in the TV show caused his comic strip revival and increased prominence, etc.


The 60s TV show and the 90s cartoon did a lot more for Mr. Freeze than the comics ever did too. They gave him his current name and origin respectively. Before that he was just a generic crook with a freeze ray called “Mr. Zero”.

Batman the Animated Series pulled a lot of characters from obscurity (The Terrible Trio, Scarface, ect).


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 14, 2013, 03:40 pm

Zack Kinkead wrote:If we’re being honest with ourselves then we’d see most comic book superheroes as this. I know people who are Iron Man fans that have never read the comics. A lot of things we associate with Superman didn’t exist until the Fleischer cartoons and the radio shows. I even know a few people who still think of Adam West as the “real” Batman. More people know these characters from tv shows, movies, and video games than they do the comics.


Particularly in the case of Men in Black.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Jul 14, 2013, 03:54 pm

I remember when Hellboy opened (or maybe it was Sin City) and people were joking that comic fans would see any comic movie even if they don’t actually read the comic.

(I wonder if Disney knows they bought Men in Black when they bought Marvel)


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 14, 2013, 03:54 pm

Michael Regan wrote:As Zach stated, yes. The prime reality is not necessarily the most popular or most visited, it is simply what came first. Buffy is one of the best examples but there are plenty more... but having been out of bed for 5 minutes none come to mind at the moment.


Many popular movies have their source in obscure novels/short stories.
Dr. Strangelove was adapted from Red Alert by Peter George.
It's a Wonderful Life from The Greatest Gift by Philip Van Doren Stern.
Die Hard from Nothing Lasts Forever by Roderick Thorp.
They Live from Eight O'Clock in the Morning by Ray Nelson.

Then there are cases when stand-alone original works get co-opted into existing franchises. The novel Stranger Tides by Tim Powers was used as the basis for Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides.


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 14, 2013, 04:07 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:Many popular movies have their source in obscure novels/short stories.
Dr. Strangelove was adapted from Red Alert by Peter George.
It's a Wonderful Life from The Greatest Gift by Philip Van Doren Stern.
Die Hard from Nothing Lasts Forever by Roderick Thorp.
They Live from Eight O'Clock in the Morning by Ray Nelson.

Then there are cases when stand-alone original works get co-opted into existing franchises. The novel Stranger Tides by Tim Powers was used as the basis for Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides.


... and the Die Hard 2 was based on Walter Wagner's 58 minutes, Live Free or Die Hard was based on the short story "A Farewell to Arms" by John Carlin, all previously unrelated works. Individually they are in their own universes, but the movies overlap multiverses.


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 14, 2013, 05:05 pm

"based on" grants a work a multiversal connection. The 1958, 1975, 2000 television series The Invisible Man have little similarity to the original novella, but with the based on the work by HG Wells tag, they qualify (for good or bad).

There are likely exceptions, such as The Karate Kid, which mentions DC Comics but clearly has not connection to the Legion of Super-Heroes character.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Jul 14, 2013, 06:25 pm

Well if we’re getting into derivative works then I feel obligated to point out just how many movies had their plots lifted from Richard Stark’s Parker series. I know about Point Blank (“The Hunter” knockoff), Payback (“The Hunter”), and Parker (“Flashfire”). A quick scan of Wikipedia also tells me about Made in the USA (“The Jugger”), Mise à sac (“The Score”), The Split (“The Seventh”), The Outfit, and Slayground (those last two based one books with the same name). Of course, I’d seen Payback long before I’d heard of Parker and only became a fan because of the Darwyn Cooke comic adaptations.

And Batman owes an awful lot to Zorro, the Shadow, and Sherlock Holmes (just to name a few).

(Also, if you listen very closely you can hear the South Park kids chanting “Simpsons did it!”. Maybe there are no new ideas.)


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 15, 2013, 08:23 am

The only thing to keep in mind regarding derivative works would be actually credited with "based on" or not. Batman may have been derived from Zorro, but only in the most base idea and nowhere, that I know of, in print along with any of the actual works.

Of course, "based on" may be the extent of multiversal connections as the majority of the characters and events within most "based on" works have little to nothing to do with the original works.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 17, 2013, 10:35 pm

Coming soon: Robotech/Voltron http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page ... e&id=46671


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 25, 2013, 04:51 pm

Some questionable sources could actually be alternate realities if they are official publications themselves. Consider the long running science fiction magazine Starlog which was rampant with speculation and rumours, some of which were outlandish but captivating in their own right.

If I remember correctly, one rumour for the them to be released The Empire Strikes Back had Han Solo up against Darth Vader in a light sabre duel which certainly could have occurred (although briefly ) in an alternate reality.

Issues of Starlog (http://archive.org/details/starlogmagazine) are available at Internet Archive (http://archive.org)


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 25, 2013, 05:02 pm

Assuming that such rumors have at least some basis in fact, would early drafts of scripts and films that were almost made count as alternate realities? Somewhere out there in the Omniverse, is there a Return of the Jedi reality that corresponds to a David-Lynch-directed version of the film?


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 25, 2013, 05:07 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:Assuming that such rumors have at least some basis in fact, would early drafts of scripts and films that were almost made count as alternate realities? Somewhere out there in the Omniverse, is there a Return of the Jedi reality that corresponds to a David-Lynch-directed version of the film?


I would suggest that only anything that has been officially made available for fans in one for or another. Many are obviously limited by how complete they are, but there are many examples of fractional realities everywhere. Of course, this theory is also a stretch of the multiversal/omniversal theory.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 25, 2013, 05:22 pm

Why would a rumor in Starlog of questionable veracity carry more "Omniversal weight" than an unreleased yet legitimate early draft of a script?
Also, although Starlog was certainly a major publication in its field, I'm not sure I would go so far as to call it "official". Official would be more like a news item in the Lucasfilm Magazine that ended up not panning out.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Jul 25, 2013, 09:36 pm

One angle I don't think has been touched upon, is the notion of drug-induced hallucinations being alternate realities the way dreams are. I can think of at least one key case: in A Very Brady Sequel, a villain inadvertently eats numerous magic mushrooms and hallucinates aspects of the Brady Kids cartoon series (including Marlin, Ping, and Pong, who are otherwise unique to the cartoon; no Moptop, sorry). From an omniverse perspective, he may have been actually tapping into the alternate reality of the cartoon series somehow.

Mind you, I don't recommend trying this method to actually visit an alternate reality.


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 26, 2013, 05:43 pm

One angle I don't think has been touched upon, is the notion of drug-induced hallucinations being alternate realities the way dreams are. I can think of at least one key case: in A Very Brady Sequel, a villain inadvertently eats numerous magic mushrooms and hallucinates aspects of the Brady Kids cartoon series (including Marlin, Ping, and Pong, who are otherwise unique to the cartoon; no Moptop, sorry). From an omniverse perspective, he may have been actually tapping into the alternate reality of the cartoon series somehow. [/uote]

A reasonable conclusion. We need a drug induced hallucination king like Nightmare to crop up somewhere :P

zuckyd1 wrote:Why would a rumor in Starlog of questionable veracity carry more "Omniversal weight" than an unreleased yet legitimate early draft of a script?
Also, although Starlog was certainly a major publication in its field, I'm not sure I would go so far as to call it "official". Official would be more like a news item in the Lucasfilm Magazine that ended up not panning out.


Unreleased would little more than FanFic, so if FanFic can be considered a reasonable alternate reality then so-be-it. FanFic is so plentiful that classification is virtually impossible and I, personally, place anything unofficially published in such a section.

I only place Starlog and any similar publication into an official category only because it is a recognized publication, but only in the realm of stretching inclusion to the extremes.

Some early drafts are reasonable inclusions, though. Consider the original novel for Star Wars which varied from the final movie but only in-so-much that events can be considered "insert retcon". If it had not been published, but leaked instead, any additional information would be questionable as canon and questionable as inclusions into the omniverse. I'm not saying that it is invalid; it simply depends on point-of-view.


zuckyd1 wrote:Jul 26, 2013, 06:56 pm

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Unreleased would little more than FanFic, so if FanFic can be considered a reasonable alternate reality then so-be-it.


I was referring specifically to early drafts of films that did get made. To me that carries significantly more weight than fan-fiction.

Sin City: Hell and Back features a hallucination that includes appearances by King Leonidas, Lone Wolf & Cub, ED-209, Big Guy & Rusty the Boy Robot, Captain America, Dirty Harry, Rambo, Martha Washington, Hagar the Horrible, and Hellboy.


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 26, 2013, 06:57 pm

If they were made, then they should have a solid footing in a reality of the Omniverse.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Jul 27, 2013, 12:36 am

One other interesting wrinkle with the omniverse comes from the 3-part mini-series Red Dwarf: Back to Earth. In that mini-series the Red Dwarf crew arrive in a world very much like our own, albeit with some differences here and there.

Unfortunately, spoiler space is required to go into further detail because it means spoiling the ending. So if you don't want to know how RD: BtE eneds, read no further.

Spoiler:
The crew learns that the world they travelled to is actually a mass hallucination brought on my an alien squid, making the more mundane world the fiction and the Red Dwarf universe the real one. However, the mundane world has achieved permanency and people in that world will continue to watch Red Dwarf on TV, not believing that they're the fiction. It is therefore possible that some other more mundane worlds were created under similar circumstances, perhaps even our own, and exist at least initially to watch Red Dwarf or some other show where the heroes they're observing are actually the real people.


captainswift wrote:Jul 27, 2013, 01:00 pm

Spoiler:
Wow, it sure must suck that reality only has 61 episodes.


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 27, 2013, 01:13 pm

captainswift wrote:
Spoiler:
Wow, it sure must suck that reality only has 61 episodes.


Typical for a British show actually. The reduction in episodes is normally offset by increasing production values as far as British production can.


captainswift wrote:Jul 27, 2013, 01:15 pm

Michael Regan wrote:Typical for a British show actually. The reduction in episodes is normally offset by increasing production values as far as British production can.


But it's not a British show, it's reality. We just think it's a British show.

Reality should have a longer running time.


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 27, 2013, 01:31 pm

captainswift wrote:But it's not a British show, it's reality. We just think it's a British show.

Reality should have a longer running time.


and the reality Andy mentions specifically was less than 3 episodes long.


Stuart V wrote:Jul 27, 2013, 02:02 pm

captainswift wrote:But it's not a British show, it's reality. We just think it's a British show.

Reality should have a longer running time.


It does. They specifically mention another season of the show that exists in that reality but which we in our reality haven't seen.


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 27, 2013, 03:05 pm

LOL... too true!

also... refer to the season 3 first episode of Community.


Michael Regan wrote:Jul 29, 2013, 11:25 am

It may be possible to have multiple skits from specific skit shows occur within a single reality. Consider Saturday Night Live, Carol Burnett Show, the original Mad TV, Sonny with a Chance/So Random, etc.

This would create some interesting unseen blends with taking theatrical movies into consideration placing Wayne's World, A Night at the Roxbury, It's Pat, Coneheads, Superstar, Blues Brothers, etc. into a single shared reality.

Purly speculation, but fun to consider.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Jul 31, 2013, 11:17 pm

Tonights episode of Futurama showed Alpha from Power Rangers in a background shot.


Michael Regan wrote:Aug 16, 2013, 08:37 pm

Likely only an homage, but the company which airs/promotes Death Race in the reboot series is Wayland Industries, the same company backing the space exploration in the Alien series.


Michael Regan wrote:Aug 31, 2013, 06:58 pm

How would interactive shows like Howdy Doody fit into the Omniversal structure? As they are, the character is simply a puppet, but in its own reality it is very much alive, yet it interacts with real life children.

I believe that it is a representation of an alternate reality which regularly overlaps with out reality.


Stuart V wrote:Aug 31, 2013, 07:17 pm

Michael Regan wrote:How would interactive shows like Howdy Doody fit into the Omniversal structure? As they are, the character is simply a puppet, but in its own reality it is very much alive, yet it interacts with real life children.

I believe that it is a representation of an alternate reality which regularly overlaps with out reality.


Arguably, yes.


Michael Regan wrote:Aug 31, 2013, 07:36 pm

There could be alternate interpretations, but I think this is the simplest option.


Stuart V wrote:Sep 1, 2013, 08:18 am

Michael Regan wrote:As they are, the character is simply a puppet, but in its own reality it is very much alive, yet it interacts with real life children.


Kind of like Chucky...


Michael Regan wrote:Sep 1, 2013, 09:47 am

One just as creepy as the other


vanhornluke wrote:Sep 5, 2013, 06:03 pm

zuckyd1 encouraged me to post this in this thread:

I just learned of a fairly obscure crossover comic I hadn't heard of before. In 1963 in Brazil, RGE (which stands for Rio Grafica e Editora) published that year's edition of their annual series titled Almanaque do O Global Juvenil in which Captain Marvel (Billy Batson from Fawcett) teams up with the original Human Torch (the android from Timely Comics)! No doubt this isn't a 616 story, but I don't see any reason to think it can't take place on Earth-Crossover (like the 70s/80s Spidey/Superman and X-Men/Teen Titans stories). But even if it doesn't take place in Earth-Crossover, it seems relevant to this thread. For more info on this issue check out the article describing it found here ( http://books.google.com/books?id=rFm0ho ... 2+crossove ). :)


Stuart V wrote:Sep 5, 2013, 06:35 pm

vanhornluke wrote:zuckyd1 encouraged me to post this in this thread:

I just learned of a fairly obscure crossover comic I hadn't heard of before. In 1963 in Brazil, RGE (which stands for Rio Grafica e Editora) published that year's edition of their annual series titled Almanaque do O Global Juvenil in which Captain Marvel (Billy Batson from Fawcett) teams up with the original Human Torch (the android from Timely Comics)! No doubt this isn't a 616 story, but I don't see any reason to think it can't take place on Earth-Crossover (like the 70s/80s Spidey/Superman and X-Men/Teen Titans stories). But even if it doesn't take place in Earth-Crossover, it seems relevant to this thread. For more info on this issue check out the article describing it found here ( http://books.google.com/books?id=rFm0ho ... 2+crossove ). :)


Thanks for the link. I remember hearing about this tale, but I don't think I'd seen too many other details before. It falls into an interesting twilight zone between being an authorised and not authorised story. In other words, some crossovers are totally authorised, taking the Amalgam story as an example - both Marvel and DC were party to it and signed off on it. Some stories featuring crossovers are unauthorised, either nod-and-wink cameos or outright copyright breaches - the Indian hero Nagraj meeting and rescuing Superman, Batman and Spider-Man (all in the one story) (http://www.againwiththecomics.com/2010/ ... ll-of.html) or the Turkish movie that starred bizarro versions of Spider-Man, Captain America and the Mexican wrestler Santo, for example. The latter, for purposes of confirming the Omniverse, can't be really given any more weight than fanfic, because of the lack of permission to use said characters. But then you have a few tales, usually from the 1950s and 1960s when people were simply less concerned about such stuff, where a company outside the US had the rights to reprint US stories, and for one reason or another just went ahead at some point with a new tale, quite probably without the US rights owner being asked or even knowing about the new tale until much later. The Brazilian story you mention seems to fall into that category, as does the Nick Fury appearance alongside an Odhams character in Pow!, a British title that was reprinting US material alongside homegrown British stories. I mentioned it and linked to the story a few pages back. (dead link)


vanhornluke wrote:Sep 5, 2013, 06:45 pm

For what it's worth, according to the article about the original Brazilian X-Men comics in the latest issue of Alter Ego, one of the writers on those stories claimed that Marvel had authorized the new stories, but there apparently isn't any documentation to back this up.


Michael Regan wrote:Sep 5, 2013, 07:55 pm

And, at that point, permission should have been granted by Fawcett as well I would assume.


Michael Regan wrote:Sep 13, 2013, 07:59 pm

How many fictions within fictions can everyone find?

For example, the JLA 80-Page Giant #3 features an in-universe comic books called Moon Maiden #1, and Twin Peaks features a soap opera called Invitation to Love.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Sep 13, 2013, 10:23 pm

Michael Regan wrote:How many fictions within fictions can everyone find?.


Spider-Man’s ex-wife used to work on a soap opera called Secret Hospital.

Itchy and Scratchy are a bigger part of the Simpsons series than most of the minor characters.


zuckyd1 wrote:Sep 14, 2013, 03:38 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fictional_works


Michael Regan wrote:Sep 14, 2013, 08:27 am

Referring to wiki... too easy


Michael Regan wrote:Sep 22, 2013, 07:16 pm

When considering the Omniverse, one must always consider the "individual" multiverses of a given fiction.

In Star Trek we have seen two realities in the original series and at least one altered/alternate prime reality. Various other series have shown us altered realities. The latest theatrical releases are alternate realities.

What do I mean by alternate realities vs altered realities?

Mirror, Mirror showed us an evil counterpart to Kirk's reality and therefore an alternate reality, yet in The City on the Edge of Forever we witness an altered reality.

This concept can be applied to various other fictions. For example, the original DC Multiverse contained countless alternate realities, all of which ceased to exist following the Crisis on Infinite Earths. Following the Crisis there was arguably only one reality, yet others did persist in the form of Elseworld stories and, of course, other media productions (television, theatrical). After 52 we had a new DC multiverse of 53 Earths, plus any other media versions presented to us. Now, following the events of Flashpoint, the new multiverse has been altered.

The Marvel Universe essentially followed the alternate reality paradigm until the events of The Age of Ultron which displayed an altered reality.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Sep 22, 2013, 08:33 pm

The whole Alternate VS Altered thing is tricky. Age of Apocalypse was an altered reality until Marvel decided it was an alternate one after all.


Michael Regan wrote:Sep 23, 2013, 08:32 am

Zach Kinkead wrote:The whole Alternate VS Altered thing is tricky. Age of Apocalypse was an altered reality until Marvel decided it was an alternate one after all.


Very true. The whole idea of Marvel and time travel was meant to simply create a divergeant reality, so the AoA thing made sense. I was unhappy with Age of Ultron until they started to show the aftermath of a broken reality.


Stuart V wrote:Sep 24, 2013, 04:39 pm

Michael Regan wrote:When considering the Omniverse, one must always consider the "individual" multiverses of a given fiction.

In Star Trek we have seen two realities in the original series and at least one altered/alternate prime reality. Various other series have shown us altered realities. The latest theatrical releases are alternate realities.

What do I mean by alternate realities vs altered realities?

Mirror, Mirror showed us an evil counterpart to Kirk's reality and therefore an alternate reality, yet in The City on the Edge of Forever we witness an altered reality.

This concept can be applied to various other fictions. For example, the original DC Multiverse contained countless alternate realities, all of which ceased to exist following the Crisis on Infinite Earths. Following the Crisis there was arguably only one reality, yet others did persist in the form of Elseworld stories and, of course, other media productions (television, theatrical). After 52 we had a new DC multiverse of 53 Earths, plus any other media versions presented to us. Now, following the events of Flashpoint, the new multiverse has been altered.

The Marvel Universe essentially followed the alternate reality paradigm until the events of The Age of Ultron which displayed an altered reality.


As subsequent posts have hinted at, there is no real difference between an altered reality and an alternate one. Precedent shows that realities which appeared to simply be altered remain ongoing alternate realities, and may always have been such. Age of Apocalypse was always an alternate reality, since there's a specific point of historic divergence, albeit one caused by a time traveller from 616. Bishop going into the past to try and undo that didn't succeed - he ensured that 616's timeline remained intact, but he didn't undo AoA. Age of Ultron would fall into this "divergence caused by a time traveller" alternate reality sub-type too, as would 1602AD, Earth-7940 (where the 616 Thing went back and made his younger self human again), Earth-Forever Yesterday, the timeline where the 616 Thing became Blackbeard for a while, and, indeed, 616 itself multiple times - the path of 616's history has been altered from what it would otherwise have been many times by the likes of DoFP Kate Rasputin, Bishop, Cable, Reigning Thor, and for that matter any and all time travellers who have visited it. And timelines where 616 was altered and then "fixed" (such as AoA) have been shown to continue existing even after they were supposedly averted. Like DoFP, you can't actually undo the new timeline, just make sure your own one continues intact too.

Other types of altered realities, ones where it seems like the present got altered and people's memories of a different past are only false memories (Age of X, House of M, Kulan Gath's NYC, Morgan Conquest, arguably Forever Yesterday) have also shown themselves to persist in many cases. There's some evidence that such reality alterations simply merge 616 with a pre-existing alternate reality that closely fits the version of the world that the alterer wanted - specifically, when very similar new "altered realities" are created by the Red Skull, Magneto and Dr. Doom in the Chaos Engine novels via the use of a Cosmic Cube, we are explicitly told that this is what has happened - it is easier for the Cube to reach out into the multiverse, locate something that fits what the user desires, and then overlay that on top of 616 than to remake 616 so extensively. And this fits reasonably well with what we saw during DC and Milestone's World's Collide crossover, Valiant and Image's Deathmate crossover, Marvel and Wildstorm's World War Three, Shattered Image (where we see the Image reality sunder into multiple different realities - the reverse or end of the merge effect), and Marvel and DC in Amalgam. Realities can and do merge - that's not debatable, it's hard fact as far as our fictional worlds are concerned. Heck, Crisis on Infinite Earths effectively ends with a long lasting version of Amalgam, and more recently DC's post-Infinite Crisis, pre-New 52 reality merged with Milestone.


Michael Regan wrote:Sep 24, 2013, 06:45 pm

An awesome detailing of various examples in the Marvel Multiverse, thank you

And that is the crux of the Marvel Multiverse theory, specifically identified. Conversely, the DC Multiverse theory indicates that alternate Earths are created at the "Big Bang", therefore the New 52 (and related alternate Earths for some reason) are the same Earths seen pre-Flashpoint with an altered history. Hard to place the Amalgam reality in respect to the DC Multiverse, but it certainly is an alternate when viewed from the Marvel Multiverse.

There are exceptions, and I think Age of Ultron is one, at least so far.


zuckyd1 wrote:Sep 27, 2013, 10:21 pm

Stuart V wrote:As subsequent posts have hinted at, there is no real difference between an altered reality and an alternate one. Precedent shows that realities which appeared to simply be altered remain ongoing alternate realities, and may always have been such. Age of Apocalypse was always an alternate reality, since there's a specific point of historic divergence, albeit one caused by a time traveller from 616. Bishop going into the past to try and undo that didn't succeed - he ensured that 616's timeline remained intact, but he didn't undo AoA. Age of Ultron would fall into this "divergence caused by a time traveller" alternate reality sub-type too, as would 1602AD, Earth-7940 (where the 616 Thing went back and made his younger self human again), Earth-Forever Yesterday, the timeline where the 616 Thing became Blackbeard for a while, and, indeed, 616 itself multiple times - the path of 616's history has been altered from what it would otherwise have been many times by the likes of DoFP Kate Rasputin, Bishop, Cable, Reigning Thor, and for that matter any and all time travellers who have visited it.


So is there an "original" Marvel reality somewhere out there which represents what 616 would have been like had there never been any time-travel-related divergences?


Michael Regan wrote:Sep 28, 2013, 09:56 am

zuckyd1 wrote:So is there an "original" Marvel reality somewhere out there which represents what 616 would have been like had there never been any time-travel-related divergences?


All divergent realities present themselves like forks in a road and the original is simply a point of view. Earth-616, regardless of situation and changes, is considered the prime reality. When Earth-616 is altered it may briefly be considered Earth-616 until reverted, like with the events of Age of Apocalypse, they when what was considered the norm reasserts then the "lost changes" would be given a new designation, in this case Earth-295.

When considering lost changes, the majority of such changes become alternate realities. One instance where the altered reality does not become/is not considered an alternate reality would be House of M, which was Earth-616 altered or masked, but was given the designation of Earth-58163 and briefly described as Reality-58163 in an attempt to give such a distinction.

The current broken reality is Earth-616, and considering the events leading up this the current status quo, will likely remain Earth-616.


zuckyd1 wrote:Sep 28, 2013, 01:36 pm

Michael Regan wrote:All divergent realities present themselves like forks in a road and the original is simply a point of view.


Since the discussion was about alternate realities created by time travel, I was speculating whether there might be some "virgin" reality—one that existed before the first time-travel-caused interference ever took place.

Michael Regan wrote:Earth-616, regardless of situation and changes, is considered the prime reality.


Is there something intrinsic about 616 that makes it the prime reality in the Marvel multiverse, or do we simply consider it to be prime because that's where the majority of published stories have taken place?


captainswift wrote:Sep 28, 2013, 06:10 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:Since the discussion was about alternate realities created by time travel, I was speculating whether there might be some "virgin" reality—one that existed before the first time-travel-caused interference ever took place.

Is there something intrinsic about 616 that makes it the prime reality in the Marvel multiverse, or do we simply consider it to be prime because that's where the majority of published stories have taken place?


There are almost certainly realities where no time travel has ever occurred, but that doesn't mean they haven't diverged. The divergence is simply that in reality A Time Travel affected event 1, and in reality B, it didn't. Both are branches, neither is more valid than the other.

Meanwhile, 616 isn't intrinsically the "Prime" reality. It only is from our viewpoint because it's the one we follow.

Unlike in DC cosmology, where all other realities were intrinsically created from a central reality. DC cosmology and Marvel cosmology aren't very good friends.


zuckyd1 wrote:Sep 28, 2013, 06:41 pm

captainswift wrote:There are almost certainly realities where no time travel has ever occurred, but that doesn't mean they haven't diverged. The divergence is simply that in reality A Time Travel affected event 1, and in reality B, it didn't. Both are branches, neither is more valid than the other.


My impression was that the way that Marvel time travel works is that anytime someone travels to the past and interacts with it they are "creating" a new reality that diverges from the reality they came from—thus making the time traveller's native reality the "source" reality. After all, the divergent reality couldn't exist without the source reality, but the reverse doesn't hold true.

Of course there is also a third reality, one where the time traveller never actually did travel to the past. That third reality certainly would be "equally valid" with what I am calling the source reality. I think that might be the comparison that you are referring to.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Sep 28, 2013, 07:13 pm

The sliding timescale ("Marvel Time") means 616 isn't really a single reality anyway. Its just a way to talk about whatever reality most of the current comics take place in regardless of which war - if any - Tony Stark, Reed Richards, Ben Grimm, ect fought in and Peter Parker's retroactive marital status at the time.


Michael Regan wrote:Oct 2, 2013, 09:48 am

Stephen King books are arguably contained within a single universe.

Similarly, all of Richard Bachman's books (pen name of King) are arguably contained within their own single universe.

Stephen King's Desperation and Richard Bachman's The Regulators involve many of the same characters but in alternate realities.


zuckyd1 wrote:Oct 2, 2013, 11:47 pm

Here's a neat chart mapping out the connections: http://www.the-digital-reader.com/wp-co ... FINAL1.jpg


Michael Regan wrote:Oct 3, 2013, 08:29 am

So, what did the 'Age of Ultron' do to the Marvel Multiverse? The first and most prominent event was that Angela, a character from the Image (Spawn) Universe found herself in the Earth-616 Universe of the Marvel Multiverse. But what are the other repercussions of the new broken reality? Well, in Indestructible Hulk we have seen a bleeding of the past into the present having Hulk fight dinosaurs with Kid Cold, Rawhide Kid and Two-Gun Kid, but this resulted from the Hulk jumping into the time-stream. The cowboys are in the right era but the generic dinosaurs are not. The latest issue of Superior Spider-Man may have more impact on continuity buffs out there with the appearance of Miguel O’Hara, of Spider-Man 2099.

It has previously been established that the events of the 2099 Universe are not actually the future of Earth-616, but have been given the designation of Earth-928 due to alterations Miguel has made to his own past, so this lends to the idea that we are not only dealing with a time breach, but another reality breach. Not necessarily; until further revelations to the contrary, this actually may be the future of Earth-616 and an alternate Miguel O’Hara. Not likely, but possibly.

If for nothing else, this has finally answered the question of the connection between Tiberius Stone and Tyler Stone.

zuckyd1 wrote:Here's a neat chart mapping out the connections: http://www.the-digital-reader.com/wp-co ... FINAL1.jpg


Awesome!


Stuart V wrote:Oct 19, 2013, 09:49 am

Michael Regan wrote:And that is the crux of the Marvel Multiverse theory, specifically identified. Conversely, the DC Multiverse theory indicates that alternate Earths are created at the "Big Bang", therefore the New 52 (and related alternate Earths for some reason) are the same Earths seen pre-Flashpoint with an altered history. Hard to place the Amalgam reality in respect to the DC Multiverse, but it certainly is an alternate when viewed from the Marvel Multiverse.


The DC version isn't incompatible with the Marvel version. Firstly, the "created during the Big Bang" thing might only hold true for the specific realities witnessed. Secondly, as the merger with Milestone showed (post New 52, pre-Flashpoint), existing realities can be merged, so the changes don't always need to go back to the Big Bang.

One interesting concept came out of the Doctor Who New Adventures novels. In one of them, the Doctor visited an alternate reality diverged from his own by a powerful time entity being manipulated by one of his enemies. At the end of the story, and to the distress of his companions, he was forced to bring about the destruction of this entire divergent timeline, because (iirc) it was effectively "sharing" the energies of the "real" timeline; if one or other wasn't terminated, both would eventually be destroyed by this. If we imagine timelines to be like streams of water all flowing from a source (most likely the Big Bang) then you could reach the point where too many splits in the streams brings them to the point of petering out. Conversely, smaller streams can merge to create huge rivers; with all the mergers in the past, DC must be a torrenting cascade constantly in danger of breaking its banks!

Michael Regan wrote:There are exceptions, and I think Age of Ultron is one, at least so far.


I don't think there are exceptions - just cases where supposed "altered realities" haven't yet been shown to endure, thus confirming themselves as "alternate realities." Sooner or later, someone will want to revisit the Age of Ultron reality.


So is there an "original" Marvel reality somewhere out there which represents what 616 would have been like had there never been any time-travel-related divergences?
Presumably, though as Michael's follow-up notes, it can't really claim to be the "original" any more than 616 can. They all have equal claim to be the original, it's just that we mostly look in on and follow events in 616.

Michael Regan wrote:All divergent realities present themselves like forks in a road and the original is simply a point of view. Earth-616, regardless of situation and changes, is considered the prime reality.


Only in terms of being the one we normally watch. More on this below.

Michael Regan wrote:When Earth-616 is altered it may briefly be considered Earth-616 until reverted, like with the events of Age of Apocalypse, they when what was considered the norm reasserts then the "lost changes" would be given a new designation, in this case Earth-295.


Correct, except that, of course, they aren't lost. They just don't continue on in 616/

Michael Regan wrote:When considering lost changes, the majority of such changes become alternate realities. One instance where the altered reality does not become/is not considered an alternate reality would be House of M, which was Earth-616 altered or masked, but was given the designation of Earth-58163 and briefly described as Reality-58163 in an attempt to give such a distinction.


Warren Traveller and the Proteus who joined the Exiles would beg to differ. I know many fans and some at Marvel insisted at the time (and may continue to insist) that HoM was not a alternate reality and so shouldn't have had a designator, but the evidence is against them. We've had stories set in HoM's past, a past that shouldn't exist in HoM was purely a remodeled 616 with fake memories overlaid. We have at least one character (Proteus) whose HoM counterpart continues to exist even after the "end" of HoM, and who can't simply be the 616 version modified because the 616 version is also still active.

Michael Regan wrote:The current broken reality is Earth-616, and considering the events leading up this the current status quo, will likely remain Earth-616.


Yes, I concur with this.

zuckyd1 wrote:Since the discussion was about alternate realities created by time travel, I was speculating whether there might be some "virgin" reality—one that existed before the first time-travel-caused interference ever took place.


Probably.

zuckyd1 wrote:Is there something intrinsic about 616 that makes it the prime reality in the Marvel multiverse, or do we simply consider it to be prime because that's where the majority of published stories have taken place?


The latter. Some writers have tried to claim it is the prime reality (and so we've had Uatu say that at least once), but again the bulk of evidence says it isn't. If it is the prime reality, the one all others spring from, or (even less likely) the one whose destruction would cause similar destruction to befall all others, then why would Saturnyne and Roma even consider for a moment destroying 616 when HoM triggered a wider reality disruption?

captainswift wrote:There are almost certainly realities where no time travel has ever occurred, but that doesn't mean they haven't diverged. The divergence is simply that in reality A Time Travel affected event 1, and in reality B, it didn't. Both are branches, neither is more valid than the other.


Absolutely spot on.

captainswift wrote:Meanwhile, 616 isn't intrinsically the "Prime" reality. It only is from our viewpoint because it's the one we follow.

Unlike in DC cosmology, where all other realities were intrinsically created from a central reality. DC cosmology and Marvel cosmology aren't very good friends.


Remember, DC's "central reality" was previously a multiverse before being collapsed into a single reality for some time. So the creation of that New 52 multiverse might be different from what takes place in other parts of the Omniverse simply because it was splitting up a large number of merged realities.

zuckyd1 wrote:My impression was that the way that Marvel time travel works is that anytime someone travels to the past and interacts with it they are "creating" a new reality that diverges from the reality they came from—thus making the time traveller's native reality the "source" reality. After all, the divergent reality couldn't exist without the source reality, but the reverse doesn't hold true.


By this thinking 616 has been "created" by time-travellers more than a few times. However, what puts the kibosh on part of this, at least to some extent, is the hypothesis Reed Richards put forward, and which has been confirmed as correct at least some of the time, whereby the time-traveller doesn't end up in their own past anyway. The traveller does create a divergence, but they don't split their own timeline into their reality and a divergent one.

A new one for the Omniverse links. In 1991 there was a one-off title produced by Fleetway for the British charity event Comic Relief. The Comic Relief Comic used, with permission from the various copyright owners, a huge number of characters from different companies (and a fair few from TV), so, while the more poe-faced types might want to argue that the story, which doesn't take itself seriously, doesn't provide an explanation for the reality crossovers, and has some characters acting somewhat out of character (various villains most notably being willing to not be so nasty as normal because the whole thing was for a good cause), it fits the real criterion of being authorised. After all, stories being humorous, silly or tongue-in-cheek and characters acting unlike their normal selves hasn't ruled out various non-crossover tales from being accepted as part of generally more serious realities.

Among those who appear in the Comic Relief Comic are:

Judge Dredd, Captain Britain, DC Thomson's Desperate Dan and Dan Dare (looking a lot like the older version seen in Revolver, rather than the one from either incarnation of Eagle), all appearing in-panel together
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-urZU8_0Dlsw/U ... /CRC07.png
- so we have solid ties between the DC Thomson universe (previously isolated from the rest of the Omniverse, I believe), Dan Dare's reality (ditto), Marvel and 2000 AD's multiverse (previously only tied to the wider Omniverse via Dredd meeting Batman);

the TMNT (original cartoon version) - but there were already plenty of other ties from the Turtles to the rest of the Omniverse.

Dan Dare (again, but this time the one from the original Eagle comic) encountering the Doctor (several of them) http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qP2NbMs3un0/U ... /CRC13.png

multiple characters from the "adult humour" comic Viz (first tie I am aware of between that comic and any other realities)

DC Thomson's Dennis the Menace and the Bash Street Kids

Superman, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man, Hulk, and several other Marvel and DC characters (plus Robocop and Judge Dredd), all donating money to the cause http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-17dx4gX9k1o/U ... 1%2529.jpg

Oh yes, and a noticeboard at the BBC showing a few others - notably Danger Mouse, Inspector Gadget, Judge Anderson. You might argue they were just pictures, but given that Judge Dredd's ally Judge Anderson is amongst them, and Dredd is "real" in this reality per the main story, presumably so is she, and by extension, so too may be the others depicted.


captainswift wrote:Oct 19, 2013, 07:57 pm

Stuart V wrote:Remember, DC's "central reality" was previously a multiverse before being collapsed into a single reality for some time. So the creation of that New 52 multiverse might be different from what takes place in other parts of the Omniverse simply because it was splitting up a large number of merged realities.


I'm not talking about the merged reality created after Crisis. I'm talking about the single reality that existed before Krona tried to discover the creation of the universe, which caused the single universe to split into the "Infinite Earths" in the first place. So it was previously a single universe before it became a multiverse, before it become a single universe. Before it became a different multiverse...


Zach Kinkead wrote:Oct 20, 2013, 12:04 am

DC had a multiverse long before CoIE. The JLA and JSA used to have to cross universes to team up.

(Actually that's true now too though the Earth 2 "team" isn't calling itself the JSA yet)

That was why they had old Golden Age Superman on Earth Two, young Silver Age Superman on Earth One, and a teenage Superboy on Earth Prime.


Stuart V wrote:Oct 20, 2013, 06:56 am

captainswift wrote:I'm not talking about the merged reality created after Crisis. I'm talking about the single reality that existed before Krona tried to discover the creation of the universe, which caused the single universe to split into the "Infinite Earths" in the first place. So it was previously a single universe before it became a multiverse, before it become a single universe. Before it became a different multiverse...


Point taken. That said, the Krona incident only really shows that he managed to split/diverge his single universe into a multiverse, not that there weren't other alternate realities "surrounding" it already.

Zach Kinkead wrote:DC had a multiverse long before CoIE. The JLA and JSA used to have to cross universes to team up.

(Actually that's true now too though the Earth 2 "team" isn't calling itself the JSA yet)

That was why they had old Golden Age Superman on Earth Two, young Silver Age Superman on Earth One, and a teenage Superboy on Earth Prime.


I think we were all aware of that. What CoIE did was merge them, plus several previously unconnected realities (Charlton, for example) into a single reality.


Michael Regan wrote:Oct 20, 2013, 02:57 pm

Stuart V wrote:I think we were all aware of that. What CoIE did was merge them, plus several previously unconnected realities (Charlton, for example) into a single reality.


The merging involved only five remaining Earths, the rest had been destroyed by the Antimonitor. The remaining Earths were Earth-One (Silver Age DC), Earth-Two (Golden Age DC), Earth-Four (Earth Charlton), Earth-S (Fawcett), and Earth-X (Earth Quality, arguably)

Keep in mind that the fact that there was only one Universe following the Crisis on Infinite Earth was essentially an "in-universe" concept and as fans we were able to witness other realities long before the birth of the new Multiverse. Certainly Elseworlds showed us alternate realities, but we also watched the four Superman movies, the four Batman movies, loads of television cartoons, etc. These, by their content, should be part of a DC Multiverse but perhaps as there was only one Universe then they could possibly be placed into a DC Megaverse. Equally, all the realities destroyed during the Crisis on Infinite Earths would still need classification and would likely be part of a Megaverse (the previous Multiverse) since they do not exist in the current list of realities.


Zach Kinkead wrote:Oct 20, 2013, 03:40 pm

Er, misread Cap Swift's post. Ops.


Michael Regan wrote:Oct 20, 2013, 06:31 pm

Stuart V wrote:The DC version isn't incompatible with the Marvel version. Firstly, the "created during the Big Bang" thing might only hold true for the specific realities witnessed. Secondly, as the merger with Milestone showed (post New 52, pre-Flashpoint), existing realities can be merged, so the changes don't always need to go back to the Big Bang.


This is very true and must be taken into account when considering many Elseworld tales, but it can also be assumed that these were identical realities formed at the point of the Big Bang and event were parallel to those on, say, New Earth until certain differences arose.

As for alternate realities spring up from time manipulation, I don't remember reading any in the DC Universe. Quite the opposite was witness in Booster Gold's second series while he was working with Rip Hunter.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:Oct 20, 2013, 06:37 pm

One other thing with DC is they have the whole Hypertime concept. It's largely ignored now but I think it can be considered to still exist, though the current versions of characters aren't aware of it. That could account for the various movies and shows and any new DC Universe comic that doesn't fit current new 52 continuity. I think Hypertime can be defined, in Omniverse terms, as the entirety of the DC Universe portion of the Omniverse. That is, anything with a DC Universe connection can be part of both Hypertime and the Omniverse as a whole. In contrast something like Fables, Preacher, and Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet which was published by DC but not in the DC Universe would still of course be part of the Omniverse but not part of Hypertime until and unless proven otherwise.


Stuart V wrote:Oct 20, 2013, 06:46 pm

Michael Regan wrote:This is very true and must be taken into account when considering many Elseworld tales, but it can also be assumed that these were identical realities formed at the point of the Big Bang and event were parallel to those on, say, New Earth until certain differences arose.

As for alternate realities spring up from time manipulation, I don't remember reading any in the DC Universe. Quite the opposite was witness in Booster Gold's second series while he was working with Rip Hunter.


"it can also be assumed" - bad choice of words, which I suspect you didn't mean. We shouldn't assume anything - hypothesise yes, offer theories or options certainly. Assume - not so much.

As for time manipulation causing alternate realities, you might be right. We do know that such manipulation can cause realities to change course, most recently with Flashpoint. Whether or not there are also divergent realities where the post-Infinite Crisis / pre-Flashpoint version of events continued on and the Flashpoint version of things also maintained remains to be seen. Unfortunately, absence of evidence of such divergences is not evidence of absence. If we ever see the Flashpoint version of a character reality hopping into New 52, then the divergence would be proven, but it is harder to prove the negative. The Rip Hunter thing, however, is certainly evidence in favour of non-divergence, depending on exactly what was said / seen; it is possible that the DC multiverse operates under different restrictions when it comes to divergences, with a variety of explanations possible, including (but not limited to) some temporal power or agency preventing divergences (we know Kang and Dr. Doom have both learned how to change time without diverging it, and Immortus presumably could, so why not the Time Trapper or some suitable DC group?), or perhaps the instability of the region prevents it (going back to the Dr. Who story I mentioned above, perhaps post-Infinite Crisis each of the 52 new realities only has enough energy to maintain itself - so a divergence means one reality will swiftly cease to exist).


zuckyd1 wrote:Oct 20, 2013, 10:20 pm

a couple of upcoming titles:

The X-Files: Conspiracy (IDW) featuring crossovers with Ghostbusters, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Transformers, and the Crow.

Legenderry: A Steampunk Adventure by Bill Willingham (Dynamite) featuring versions of Vampirella, Green Hornet and Kato, the Phantom, Flash Gordon, Captain Victory and Silver Star, Zorro, the Six Thousand Dollar Man(!), and Red Sonja.


Michael Regan wrote:Oct 21, 2013, 01:20 pm

Stuart V wrote:"it can also be assumed" - bad choice of words


You are correct, my apologies :blush:

I guess a better description would be to detail specific occurances where the point can be proven, but this still does not disprove alternate creations we are not witness to.


Michael Regan wrote:Nov 1, 2013, 02:01 pm

Can this thread be saved and transfered to cxPulp?
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Omniverse Map

Postby Capes (Optional) » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:36 pm

historical text from CxPulp:

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:11-09-2013, 10:27 PM

Michael Regan wrote:Can this thread be saved and transfered to cxPulp?


Nope, sorry, wasn't able to salvage it. It's completely toast I'm afraid. :grin:

Seriously, though:

Michael Regan wrote:The merging involved only five remaining Earths, the rest had been destroyed by the Antimonitor. The remaining Earths were Earth-One (Silver Age DC), Earth-Two (Golden Age DC), Earth-Four (Earth Charlton), Earth-S (Fawcett), and Earth-X (Earth Quality, arguably)


Actually, that's a common misconception. Crisis #11 states that in the revised history the multiverse never existed, thus it encompassed even the destroyed universes. In fact, when describing the new universe, Harbinger specifically mentions Earth-6, one of the destroyed Earths, thus lumping together the five surviving (as of #10) universes and the destroyed universes.


Stuart V wrote:12-15-2013, 06:22 AM

Another less well known crossover of sorts to add to the list. Marvel UK editor John Freeman decided to have some fun:

http://downthetubes.net/dtt-old/feature ... eluk2.html (dead link)
Planet of the Dead, a two-part story featuring several past companions and the first seven doctors - in likeness, if not as the originals - was intended as an anniversary tribute to Doctor Who. "It also featured the Gwanzulum," recalls John Freeman, who was also editor of Doctor Who Magazine at the time and was delighted to be asked to pen the story. "These were shape-changing aliens that were also slipped into several other Marvel titles in the same month, to see if readers noticed their "secret invasion!"

Though it seems the appearances didn't end up coming out all in the same month, the shapeshifting Gwanzulum proceeded to turn up in:

Transformers #160 and 161 (April 1988), in the humerously-toned Combat Colin back-up strip
http://gijoe.wikia.com/wiki/Transformer ... _UK%29_161
(Combat Colin is, in himself, a nexus of crossovers, as his creator Lew Stringer had no hesitation including famous guest stars in the strip, so that Colin met both Marvel Universe (cf http://lewstringer.blogspot.co.uk/2007/ ... colin.html) and Transformers characters (cf http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Combat_Colin_300) fairly frequently, as well as crossing over with Lew's other characters, both those from other Marvel UK titles (Macho Man, for example) and those from independent comics (Brickman).)

The Real Ghostbusters #9 (July 1988)
http://www.theraffon.net/~spookcentral/ ... sue009.htm

Doctor Who Magazine #141 (October 1988), in the Doctor's strip
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Gwanzulum

and, allegedly, in both Marvel UK's Thundercats and Galaxy Rangers, though I've not yet tracked down which issues.


Stuart V wrote:12-19-2013, 02:33 PM

An Easter Egg, but a crossover nevertheless - Mike Tucker, special effects guru and model maker on both Doctor Who and Red Dwarf, snuck the TARDIS into a model shot of a scene in Red Dwarf.
http://www.ganymede.tv/images/indepth/tardis-mag.jpg

It didn't make it into an episode, sadly, as the shot was dropped for an alternate shot in the episode Marooned (series 3 of RD), but it is included in the special features on the DVD release.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:01-12-2014, 04:53 PM

How would a multiverse model approach something like this, where stuff that was previously somewhat canon is no longer canon at all? Business as usual as Star Wars Expanded Universe stuff took place in different Earths, or would this mean that the Earths were now it some further away part of the multiverse relative to the main Star Wars Earth than they once were?
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/01/ ... -universe/


Stuart V wrote:01-13-2014, 12:54 PM

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:
How would a multiverse model approach something like this, where stuff that was previously somewhat canon is no longer canon at all? Business as usual as Star Wars Expanded Universe stuff took place in different Earths, or would this mean that the Earths were now it some further away part of the multiverse relative to the main Star Wars Earth than they once were?
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/01/ ... -universe/


No such thing as "not canon" in an infinite omniverse. Just "not canon" in the given reality. So the stuff no longer consisted part of the Star Wars main universe canon isn't gone, any more than Earth-2 was when DC shifted most stories to Earth-1, or Valiant was when their stories switched to the Acclaim universe.

And, on a vaguely related note, now that Disney own so many properties, when am I getting my Exiles team consisting of Morph, Jaxxon, Frozone, Darkwing Duck, Layla Williams and Sweetums?


zuckyd1 wrote:01-22-2014, 01:20 PM

Vampirella Annual 2013 (Dynamite) features an analogue of Dexter Morgan.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:02-02-2014, 02:20 PM

One interesting situation is when fictional characters interact with real life people. Examples including Sacha Baron Cohen's characters putting people in awkward situations, Space Ghost and the fictionalized Stephen Colbert interviewing people, and Spinal Tap doing live performances. In such cases have fictional characters actually crossed over into our world (or brought people into their world), or have the worlds folded in to one another briefly?

And then there's the case of Lenny and the Squigtones performing live on American Bandstand in 1979. It can be found here (they also did an LP): https://youtu.be/mS5qlEcttEw

The two main singers in the band are Lenny and Squiggy from Laverne & Shirley Between songs they claim that they are real (their actors are cited as their managers) but that Laverne & Shirley are actresses. So they can't be the exact reality as the show for this reason and the fact that Laverne & Shirley was set in the 1960s. So maybe you can say that these are counterparts of the other Lenny & Squiggy, ones whose adventures are in 1979 where they work with actresses on their version of Laverne & Shirley. Then you only have to worry about the intermingling with reality right?

Not so fast. One of the backup performers is Nigel Tufnel, played by Christopher Guest (Tufnel is also credited on the LP, most likely placing that recording in the same reality of this American Bandstand appearance). Nigel Tufnel of course subsequently gained prominence from the mock documentary This is Spinal Tap. Unless the latter movie he doesn't sing and his costume is quite different.

So now there are three possibilities:
1. Tufnel was already a member of Spinal Tap (which in its own timeline existed in 1979) but opted to dress differently and not sing in exchange for appearing on American Bandstand. Possible, but unlikely. It doesn't really suit his character and Dick Clark doesn't mention Tap (the real world reason being this preceded the movie by a few years).
2. In our world it was 1979 but viewers were actually turning in to a 1960s episode in another world. That would make the episode take place roughly when Laverne & Shirley was set, roughly around the forming of Spinal Tap (The Originals/The New Originals/Thamesmen period) which could explain Tufnel's different look and willingness to take a more background role.

If either of the above two are correct then this and the LP the first appearances of the reality depicted in This is Spinal Tap.

3. This is a counterpart of Tufnel in the 1979 Lenny and the Squigtones world in which Tufnel was never a member of Spinal Tap.

Michael McKean, who played Lenny, also played David St. Hubbins in This is Spinal Tap. But while an interesting bit of trivia this is probably irrelevant from an Omniverse perspective; otherwise all sorts of spurious Omniverse ties would have to be considered.

Thoughts?


zuckyd1 wrote:02-02-2014, 03:58 PM

Andy E. Nystrom wrote:
One interesting situation is when fictional characters interact with real life people. Examples including Sacha Baron Cohen's characters putting people in awkward situations, Space Ghost and the fictionalized Stephen Colbert interviewing people, and Spinal Tap doing live performances. In such cases have fictional characters actually crossed over into our world (or brought people into their world), or have the worlds folded in to one another briefly?


My own personal take is this:
In our real world we are aware that Borat is simply a fictional persona created by actor Sacha Baron Cohen.
However, just as writers' fictitious stories are subconsciously channelled from other realities in which those events actually took place, Cohen is likewise subconsciously mirroring the real Borat's actions when he appears in character on talk shows. On Earth-Borat, Borat really did appear on The Tonight Show with that reality's versions of Jay Leno and Martha Stewart, and Sacha Baron Cohen is a completely unrelated person (if he even exists at all).
https://youtu.be/WVpOQQhXbAo


vanhornluke wrote:02-12-2014, 07:09 PM

Posts 623 I've got a question about an obscure crossover, and I guess this is the place to ask. I doubt there's ever been an official designation, but on what Earth do the events of Busiek's Pow! Biff! Pops! ([url=link]http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2013/09/27/comic-book-legends-revealed-438/[/url]) take place? At first glance one might think that it should be set on Earth-Crossover, just like the other early Marvel/DC crossovers. However, IIRC, in Marvel Treasury Edition #28 (the second Supes/Spidey crossover, if one doesn't count the Busiek story I'm asking about in this post) Crossover-Spider-Man wonders about never having crossed paths with Crossover-Wonder Woman before, but a Spidey clearly meets a Wonder Woman in this Busiek story. So, does it take place on a different Earth? Or should we consider it an Earth-Crossover story with a minor discrepancy that could maybe be retconned?


zuckyd1 wrote:02-15-2014, 11:36 AM

In a similar vein to Borat, etc. is the short-lived Marvel singer/superhero Nightcat. She had both a one-shot comic and a real-life album complete with promotional TV appearances. To make things even more meta, in the comic book she meets Stan Lee, who offers to make a comic book about her!

nightcat-stanlee.jpg


vanhornluke wrote:02-18-2014, 06:19 PM

I may have just learned of more obscure crossovers. According to here and here, in the Brazilian comic Raio Negro (Black Lightning) #15, the main character teams up with the X-Men character Unus. Also, according to the latter link, Black Lightning later also crossed over with the Brazilian hero named Comet.


zuckyd1 wrote:02-19-2014, 07:18 PM

El Torres's Nancy in Hell crosses over with Erik Larsen's Savage Dragon in the Amigo Comics one-shot Nancy: A Dragon in Hell.


RedKnight wrote:02-27-2014, 08:18 AM

An odd one here, but all of the "misremembered memories" presented during episodes of How I Met Your Mother could be potential alternate realities.


zuckyd1 wrote:02-28-2014, 06:39 PM

IDW is publishing a crossover of Cartoon Network characters titled "Super Secret Crisis War". It will feature Samurai Jack, Ben 10, Powerpuff Girls, Dexter’s Laboratory, Ed, Edd, & Eddy, Foster’s Home for Imaginary Friends, Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy, Johnny Bravo, Codename: Kids Next Door, and Cow and Chicken.


zuckyd1 wrote:03-02-2014, 05:37 PM

I don't know all that much about video games, but this video seems pretty cool:https://youtu.be/blaX_eMz3Qw


Stuart V wrote:03-12-2014, 03:40 PM

Couple of things:

First, I won the latest Comic Book Six Degrees challenge on Comicbookresources.
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.co ... e-machine/
Mentioning it in case readers of this thread might be interested in trying to take up the challenge I set, which is active this week. Just don't discuss any link theories in open posts here, at least until the challenge ends.

Second, on the audio crossovers front - Big Finish, who produce Dr. Who licensed audios introduced Oscar Wilde's Dorian Grey in their Doctor Who spin-off Bernice Summerfield range, then had Dorian spin off into his own series. He subsequently ran into Sherlock Holmes (but Holmes was already part of Who canon, per the novel All-Consuming Fire), and has just been announced for a crossover with their licensed Dark Shadows series
http://www.bigfinish.com/news/v/dorian- ... rk-shadows
Obviously Dark Shadows was already linked to the wider Omniverse via a comics crossover between Barnabus Collins and Vampirella, but it is nice nonetheless to have another confirmed link.


zuckyd1 wrote:03-12-2014, 05:53 PM

Barnabas Collins also appears in Moonstone's Kolchak Tales Annual #1. Characters and places from Dark Shadows make an unofficial appearance in the Man From U.N.C.L.E. novel The Hollow Crown Affair. There's also a very clever allusion in Gold Key's Dark Shadows #34 to a classic Dr. Strange story: http://martinohearn.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... sover.html


zuckyd1 wrote:04-19-2014, 04:13 PM

Aw Yeah Comics' Action Cat teams up with a cat version of Captain Action in Dynamite's CAPTAIN ACTION CAT: THE TIMESTREAM CATASTROPHE!, which also features appearances by Dark Horse characters Ghost, X, Captain Midnight, and the Occultist.


thorleywinston wrote:04-29-2014, 01:58 PM

Question about finding for a link for Ninja High School to the rest of the omniverse – what about Warrior Nun Areala? IIRC the character was introduced in Ninja High School, got her own spin-off series written by Ben Dunn and has since appeared in crossovers with Glory, Razor and Avengelyne and is supposed to be part of the War of the Independents crossover.

Also as I recall back when Eternity published NHS they had a one-page gag crossover between Ninja High School and Robotech (who Eternity had the license form) in which Asriel had captured some miniaturized Invid and kept them as pets. There was also a similar gag crossover between the characters of Dinosaurs for Hire who were working a space filling station providing fuel for Invid vehicle as well. Both were printed in the back of issues of Robotech II the Sentinels as a one-page bonus comic.


zuckyd1 wrote:04-29-2014, 02:40 PM

I'm not too familiar with Ninja High School, but my understanding is that many of the issues featured cameos/guest appearances—some of them legitimate, others merely analogues/parodies.


thorleywinston wrote:04-29-2014, 03:04 PM

zuckyd1 wrote:
I'm not too familiar with Ninja High School, but my understanding is that many of the issues featured cameos/guest appearances—some of them legitimate, others merely analogues/parodies.


Yeah Ninja High School pretty much spoofed everyone from Doctor Who to Dune to Highlander back in the day. They even had their Terminator, Rambo, Super Sentai pastiches who became regular supporting characters.

The two I was referencing though were actually appearances in the Robotech II the Sentinels comic by a couple of characters from Ninja High School and Dinosaurs for Hire (Eternity had the license for all three at the time). Each was a separate one-page strip that appeared at the end of the regular feature. Agree it was done for “laughs” but I thought I’d include it if things like Easter Eggs are fair game for inclusion. The Warrior Nun Areala spinoff where the main character eventually crossovered with several other non-NHS characters is a stronger contender IMO.

BTW: Ninja High School also did an official crossover with Ted Nomura's Tigers Of Terra: Families Of Altered Wars series (I think it was a two-parter) where the characters from NHS were transported in the TOT:FOAW universe.


zuckyd1 wrote:04-29-2014, 03:56 PM

Warrior Nun Areala also crossed over with Steve Englehart's Scorpio Rose. A parody of Areala (Sister Nun Areola) appears in Avengeblade #1.
Which issues of Robotech had the NHS and DFH appearances?


thorleywinston wrote:04-29-2014, 04:17 PM

The Ninja High School comic was in Robotech II: The Sentinels Book 1 1: A New Threat and you can watch a motion comic of it here. The Dinosaurs for Hire comic was in Robotech II: The Sentinels Book 1 8: Departure.


thorleywinston wrote:04-29-2014, 04:20 PM

My original reply is awaiting moderation (probably because I tried to include links) but the Ninja High School comic was in Robotech II: The Sentinels Book 1 1: A New Threat and the Dinosaurs for Hire comic was in Robotech II: The Sentinels Book 1 8: Departure. They were both written by Ben Dunn and Tom Mason (the original creators) respectively.


zuckyd1 wrote:05-01-2014, 10:35 PM

Just stumbled onto this new blog devoted to crossovers: http://www.crossoveruniverse.com


Sean Lee Levin wrote:05-02-2014, 01:34 PM

Hey, that's my blog! I was slevin87 on Comixfan, by the way. Thanks for sharing the link!


zuckyd1 wrote:05-02-2014, 02:27 PM

Sean Lee Levin wrote:
Hey, that's my blog! I was slevin87 on Comixfan, by the way. Thanks for sharing the link!


Oh cool, I didn't know that. Really looking forward to the new books!


zuckyd1 wrote:06-01-2014, 12:12 PM

Chew/Revival One-Shot (Image, 2014)


Stuart V wrote:06-08-2014, 11:37 AM

thorleywinston wrote:
Question about finding for a link for Ninja High School to the rest of the omniverse – what about Warrior Nun Areala?


Honestly, I'd completely overlooked her. And yes, through her other crossovers she links NHS to the rest of the Omniverse.


zuckyd1 wrote:06-25-2014, 03:54 PM

SUPER SECRET CRISIS WAR (IDW, 2014): Samurai Jack, Ben 10, Dexter's Laboratory, The Powerpuff Girls, Ed Edd N' Eddy, Johnny Bravo, The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy, Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends, Cow and Chicken, Codename: Kids Next Door
(Most of these characters had previously crossed over in various Cartoon Network video games.)


thorleywinston wrote:07-15-2014, 01:53 PM

Are there any particular rules about using video game crossovers to include anime and manga characters? I know that there was a Capcom vs. Tatsunoko and several other crossover video game series including Super Robot Wars, Shuuketsu! Choujou Daikessen, Heroes Phantasia, Nakayoshi and Shonen Jump which would bring in another fifty or so anime and manga series.

I'd be happy to lay out the connections to what Stuart V has done so far.


zuckyd1 wrote:07-15-2014, 03:28 PM

I'm not sure what the rules are for video game crossovers (I consider them valid, but usually weaker than other links). However I don't know why the rules would be any different just because anime/manga characters are involved. I'm eager to see what you've come up with.


zuckyd1 wrote:07-23-2014, 02:18 PM

GROO VS. CONAN (Dark Horse, 4 issues, 2014)


zuckyd1 wrote:07-31-2014, 01:17 PM

THE SHADOW OVER INNSMOUTH (Dynamite, one-shot, 2014)


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:08-05-2014, 08:40 PM

My personal take on games is that they are a series of similar alternate realities. In some cases where two players play the game almost identically they can be argued to be the same reality. Some leeway possible for slight gaming differences just as dialogue, clothes etc can shift slightly in retellings of 616 origin stories but are still considered the same Earth. However, key characters dying at different places or surviving to the end can be seen as divergence points.


Andy E. Nystrom wrote:08-07-2014, 09:33 PM

Comic Book Resources just did an article on a My Little Pony/Quantum Leap crossover
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.co ... ou-wanted/


Eduardo M. wrote:08-07-2014, 10:06 PM

Andy E. Nystrom' wrote:Comic Book Resources just did an article on a My Little Pony/Quantum Leap crossover
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.co ... ou-wanted/


.................. what?


zuckyd1 wrote:09-10-2014, 02:07 PM

GRENDEL VS.THE SHADOW (3-isse miniseries, Dark Horse/Dynamite, 2014)

DAWN/VAMPIRELLA (6-issue miniseries, Dynamite, 2014)

JUSTICE, INC. (Dynamite, 2014) features the Shadow, Doc Savage, and the Avenger.


zuckyd1 wrote:09-17-2014, 04:56 PM

I'm not sure that this quite counts as an Omniverse link, but Deadpool Bi-Annual​ #1 brings Brute Force into the Marvel universe.


zuckyd1 wrote:10-07-2014, 03:32 PM

The Turkish superhero Süpercan crosses over with various Marvel characters in his eponymous video game. (I'm not sure whether he has ever appeared anywhere outside of this game.)


vanhornluke wrote:10-09-2014, 02:11 PM

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/movi ... /16954799/


zuckyd1 wrote:10-26-2014, 10:31 AM

They've previously taken part in Infestation and X-Files: Conspiracy, but now there's a TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES/GHOSTBUSTERS four-issue limited series from IDW.


zuckyd1 wrote:11-05-2014, 06:13 PM

SCOOBY-DOO TEAM-UP #7 features the Flintstones and the Jetsons.


zuckyd1 wrote:11-12-2014, 02:42 PM

DJANGO/ZORRO 6-issue miniseries (Dynamite, 2014)


zuckyd1 wrote:11-26-2014, 02:24 PM

ANGRY BIRDS TRANSFORMERS 4-issue miniseries (IDW, 2014)


Stuart V wrote:11-30-2014, 05:38 AM

Tangentially relevant, here's a who's who of the Secret Wars initial promo image:
secretwars_labelled.jpg


Disclaimer – in all cases where a reality / original appearance is listed, feel free to include “or close alternate reality counterpart thereof,” especially as some of these characters were dead when last seen in their native reality.

  1. Monolith (Hank Pym counterpart) of the Iron Avengers (Earth X)
  2. Iron Man Noir
  3. “Classic” Iron Man
  4. “Classic” Thor
  5. Magni of Earth-Reigning
  6. Red Wolf of Reality-Hercules 24th century
  7. Coal Tiger of Avengers Next, MC2 (some online speculation that this is Earth X’s
  8. King Panther, but despite some resemblance King Panther wears a robe with two
  9. panther heads on it, compared to Coal Tiger’s single panther-head necklace)
  10. Doctor Zero of Shadowline
  11. Captain America (Sam Wilson) of current era Earth-616
  12. Steelbow (Hawkeye counterpart) of the Iron Avengers (Earth X)
  13. “Superior” Iron Man, current era 616
  14. Iron Man 2020 (Arno Stark)
  15. Obnoxio the Clown from Crazy Magazine
  16. Mainframe of Earth MC2
  17. Matthew Murdoch of 1602
  18. Darkdevil of MC2
  19. “Classic” Captain America
  20. Teen Hulk from Crazy Magazine
  21. Captain America of the Iron Avengers, Mangaverse
  22. Ghost Rider 2099
  23. American Dream of MC2
  24. “Classic” Captain Marvel
  25. Nightmask of the New Universe
  26. “Classic” Wasp
  27. Spider-Man (Miles Morales) of the Ultimate Universe
  28. Spitfire of the New Universe
  29. Thunderstrike of MC2
  30. Hyperion of the Squadron Supreme (Earth-S presumably)
  31. Hyperion from the Supreme Power universe
  32. Lenore Castle, one half of Power Line, from Shadowline
  33. Victor Guillermos, the other half of Power Line, from Shadowline
  34. Horus of Earth-Forever Yesterday
  35. St. George from Shadowline
  36. Starbrand from the New Universe
  37. Stinger of the Iron Avengers, Earth X
  38. Stinger of MC2
  39. Thor (female) of current era 616


vanhornluke wrote:11-30-2014, 04:32 PM

I wish Rune or someone from Ultraforce had also appeared there. :-(


Sidney Osinga wrote:11-30-2014, 09:06 PM

My greatest fear is that Secret Wars will end with the destruction of one of Marvel's most unique features, the Megaverse.


zuckyd1 wrote:01-01-2015, 05:58 PM

STAR TREK/PLANET OF THE APES: THE PRIMATE DIRECTIVE 5-issue miniseries (IDW/Boom, 2014)


zuckyd1 wrote:03-04-2015, 01:37 PM

HACK/SLASH / NAILBITER one-shot (Image, 2015)


POWERPUFF GIRLS: SUPER SMASH UP! #2 adds Courage the Cowardly Dog to the IDW Cartoon-verse.


Stuart V wrote:03-09-2015, 04:06 PM

Okay, a couple of multi/Omniverse pictures I could do with some help with:

Madman's Independent Comics Party
madman_multiverse.jpg


I ran across this image yesterday, and now, OCD when it comes to identifying comic characters, I find myself unable not to try and name everyone. Can anyone help? I've labelled everyone with a conga line of numbering, running from 1 to 99, then a1 to a9, b1 to b9 and c1 (I was trying to keep the labels small by not using three digits, hence it getting alphanumeric in the later bits). b9 and c1 are out of sequence, as I spotted them after labelling everyone else.
madman_multiverse_key.jpg


Here's who I have so far:

  • Spawn
  • Scott Pilgrim
  • Lava Lass (Atomics)
  • Seth from Palookaville
  • The Lazer (Atomics)
  • Jack Tenrec (Xenozoic Tales)
  • Hannah Dundee (Xenozoic Tales)
  • Zot
  • Rufo (Mesmo Delivery)
  • Concrete
  • Spirit
  • Harvey Pekar? (American Splendor)
  • Captain Victory
  • Mr. A
  • Flaming Carrot
  • Cerebus
  • Rocketeer
  • Pluck
  • Fuzz
  • Mr. Gum (Atomics)
  • Maggie Chascarillo (Love and Rockets)
  • Zapman (Atomics)
  • Destroyer Duck
  • Hopey Glass (Love and Rockets)
  • Al Columbia’s Pim
  • Al Columbia’s Francie
  • Mr. X
  • Doktor Sleepless
  • Stig (Stig’s inferno)
  • Black Crystal (Atomics)
  • ?
  • Wonder Warthog
  • Sphere (Star Jammers)
  • Shadowhawk
  • Christian Walker (Powers)
  • ?
  • Deena Pilgrim (Powers)
  • ?
  • Gunwitch (Nocturnals)
  • ?
  • The Tick
  • 8-Opus (Myth of 8-Opus)
  • ?
  • El Borbah
  • The Slug (Atomics)
  • Jack-in-the-Box (Astro City)
  • Leonardo (TMNT)
  • ?
  • ?
  • ?
  • Anne O’Brien (Monkeyman and O’Brien)
  • Axwell Tiberius / Monkeyman (Monkeyman and O’Brien)
  • ?
  • Big Guy (Big Guy and Rusty the Boy Robot)
  • Dr. Id, Psychologist of the Supernatural
  • Kyle Baker’s Cowboy Wally
  • Dragon (Savage Dragon)
  • Nexus
  • Hellboy
  • Enid Coleslaw (Ghost World)
  • Asterios Polyp
  • ?
  • ?
  • Madman
  • Joe Lombard
  • ?
  • Jimmy Corrigan
  • Fone Bone
  • Pip (Pip and Norton)
  • Cheese (Milk & Cheese)
  • Uncle Gabby (The Maakies)
  • Drinky Crow (The Maakies)
  • Phoebe Duprey (The Chuckling Whatsit)
  • Milk (Milk & Cheese)
  • Jopo de Pojo (by Joost Swarte)
  • The Jam
  • The Goon
  • ?
  • Newman Xeno (Casanova)
  • Ed the Happy Clown
  • ?
  • Jim Woodring's Frank
  • Norton (Pip and Norton)
  • Marv (Sin City)
  • Art Spiegelman (Maus)
  • ULTRA-Lad
  • Jay Stephens’ Jetcat
  • Mike Allred’s Red Rocket 7
  • The Boy (Umbrella Academy)
  • Archer Prewitt’s Sof’ Boy
  • Pecan Sandy
  • Marlys (Linda Barry’s)
  • Errata Stigmata
  • Metal Man (Atomics)
  • Boston Zegas
  • Emily Zegas
  • It Girl (Atomics)
  • Buddy Bradley (Hate)
  • Emi Lenox (EmiTown)

    a1. Jim Rugg’s Afrodisiac
    a2. ?
    a3. Grendel (Hunter Rose)
    a4. F**kface (Prison Pit)
    a5. Laura / Queen of the Leather Astro-Girls of Saturn (Why I Hate Saturn)
    a6. Jimbo
    a7. Chunky Rice
    a8. Too-Much Coffee man
    a9. Moebius’ Major Grubert.
    b1. Luba (Love and Rockets)
    b2. David Mack’s Kabuki
    b3. ?
    b4. Reuben Flagg (American Flagg)
    b5. Rocco Vargas ?
    b6. Martha Washington
    b7. Mr. Natural (Robert Crumb’s)
    b8. Pneuman (Tom Strong)
    b9. Is (The Maxx)
    c1. ?

Can anyone shed light on any of the remaining ones. Some of them look very familiar, but I can't place them.


Stuart V wrote:03-09-2015, 05:21 PM

And here's some others I'd like to try and ID.

avuf_unidentified1.jpg
avuf_unidentified2.jpg
avuf_unidentified3.jpg
avuf_unidentified4.jpg
avuf_unidentified5.jpg
avuf_unidentified6.jpg




zuckyd1 wrote:03-09-2015, 06:04 PM

I think 67 is Chris Ware's Jimmy Corrigan.
I definitely recognize 82 but I can't place it.
I can't find b9 and c1.
Where is this from? Do you have a higher-resolution image?


zuckyd1 wrote:03-09-2015, 06:28 PM

I found a higher resolution image: http://www.blast-o-rama.com/wp-content/ ... arty_3.jpg

And a blog post by the penciller: http://michelfiffe.com/?p=1936
Interestingly, one of the inspirations for the image was Fantastic Four Roast.
Apparently a character named the Heckler is in there, which I assume is not Keith Giffen's DC character. Also, according to the comments, you're right about Harvey Pekar and Rocco Vargas.


Stuart V wrote:03-09-2015, 06:48 PM

zuckyd1 wrote:I think 67 is Chris Ware's Jimmy Corrigan.


Yes, I concur. I knew I recognised him, but couldn't place him.

zuckyd1 wrote:I definitely recognize 82 but I can't place it.


Yes, another one I feel I should know.

zuckyd1 wrote:I can't find b9 and c1.


b9 is directly below Jimmy Corrigan. c1 is a head sticking out from behind a wall, hidden between 94 and 95.

zuckyd1 wrote:Where is this from? Do you have a higher-resolution image?


Madman: 20th Anniversary Monster. And yes, but for some reason they only uploaded as the tiny images seen here. However, I see you managed to find a larger version.

And just identified Pip and Norton, 69 and 83 respectively.
http://www.comics.org/issue/360293/cover/4/


zuckyd1 wrote:03-09-2015, 08:15 PM

I remembered #82. It's Jim Woodring's Frank.
#a9 is Moebius’ Major Grubert.
I think #4 might actually be Seth's eponumous character from Palookaville.
Additional internet research uncovers the following:
#9 Rufo (Mesmo Delivery)
#25 & 26 Al Columbia’s Pim & Francie
#56 Kyle Baker’s Cowboy Wally
#79 Newman Xeno (Casanova)
#87 Jay Stephens’ Jetcat
#88 Mike Allred’s Red Rocket 7
#90 Archer Prewitt’s Sof’ Boy
#a1 Jim Rugg’s Afrodisiac
#b2 David Mack’s Kabuki


zuckyd1 wrote:03-09-2015, 08:32 PM

Sorry for the multiple posts. I actually tried breaking down that Perez image a few years ago, but there were a few characters I was unable to identify including, unfortunately, all the ones you posted.


Stuart V wrote:03-10-2015, 02:09 PM

zuckyd1 wrote:I remembered #82. It's Jim Woodring's Frank.
#a9 is Moebius’ Major Grubert.
I think #4 might actually be Seth's eponumous character from Palookaville.
Additional internet research uncovers the following:
#9 Rufo (Mesmo Delivery)
#25 & 26 Al Columbia’s Pim & Francie
#56 Kyle Baker’s Cowboy Wally
#79 Newman Xeno (Casanova)
#87 Jay Stephens’ Jetcat
#88 Mike Allred’s Red Rocket 7
#90 Archer Prewitt’s Sof’ Boy
#a1 Jim Rugg’s Afrodisiac
#b2 David Mack’s Kabuki


Great, thanks! That cut's down the unidentified ones quite nicely.

zuckyd1 wrote:Sorry for the multiple posts. I actually tried breaking down that Perez image a few years ago, but there were a few characters I was unable to identify including, unfortunately, all the ones you posted.


I've identified all the rest, but these ones elude me.


zuckyd1 wrote:04-08-2015, 03:39 PM

MASKS 2 (Dynamite, 2015) is an 8-issue sequel to the 2012 crossover series. Most of the characters from the original volume return, along with new additions Peter Cannon, Lady Satan, and the Black Sparrow.


Stuart V wrote:04-12-2015, 09:22 AM

First, a mention of an official, if unusual, crossover between Garfield and the TMNT.
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.co ... led-518/3/

Second, I contacted Michel Fiffe, artist of the Madman party image that I posted up a few posts back. He helped identify several characters not previously identified, but also mentioned that Mike Allred added a few heads in when he did the inks, so that even Michel doesn't know who everyone is! The ones he identified were:


18/19.Pluck and Fuzz

31. Maybe from Dylan Horrock's PICKLE? This one I still haven't been able to confirm - anyone able to?

42. 8-Opus (MYTH of 8 OPUS)

55. Dr. ID

73. Phoebe Duprey (The Chuckling Whatsit)

75. Joost Swarte's Jopo de Pojo

78. Some old Paul Pope character Still haven't been able to match this up to a specific character.

80. Ed the Happy Clown
86. ULTRA-Lad
91. Pecan Sandy
92. Marlys (Linda Barry’s)

95/96. My very own Boston & Emily Zegas, brother and sister.

a4. F**kface from Prison Pit

a6. Jimbo
a7. Chunky Rice

So that leaves 17 out of 118 characters to identify.


zuckyd1 wrote:04-15-2015, 10:57 AM

ARCHIE VS. PREDATOR (Dark Horse, 2015) 4-issue miniseries. The first issue also has a 1-page Sabrina (Aguirre-Sacasa version) and Hellboy story.


zuckyd1 wrote:04-16-2015, 07:53 PM

Stuart, I figure you're the one to ask about this—there was an alien race called the Gwanzulum which appeared in several titles published by Marvel UK: Doctor Who, Real Ghostbusters, Thundercats, Combat Colin. Do you know if they appeared anywhere else (particularly in any of the 616 titles)?
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Gwanzulum


vanhornluke wrote:04-29-2015, 05:06 PM

Here's a Spidey that I'm pretty sure didn't appear in Spiderverse: http://coa.inducks.org/issue.php?c=nl/EDS2015-02 :-P

A contributor to the Complete Marvel Reading Order forum was kind enough to translate the relevant story: http://imgur.com/a/Tcpp4


zuckyd1 wrote:05-07-2015, 12:42 PM

Dynamite's SWORDS OF SORROW event features Red Sonja, Dejah Thoris, Vampirella, Lady Rawhide, Jennifer Blood, Masquerade, Jungle Girl, Kato, Miss Fury, Lady Zorro, Black Sparrow, Pantha, Irene Adler, Jane Porter, and the Chaos universe (Lady Demon, Purgatori, Mistress Hel, Chastity, Bad Kitty).


zuckyd1 wrote:06-14-2015, 02:52 PM

This might not be the best place to post this, but the other Omniverse threads are pretty dead. Wikia claims that in Captain America and the Mighty Avengers #7 Kevin Brashear "exited and re-entered the Omniverse itself". Is this solely an error on Wikia's part, or does writer Al Ewing not understand the concept of the Omniverse? Has anyone read this issue?


Stuart V wrote:06-18-2015, 07:34 PM

zuckyd1 wrote:Stuart, I figure you're the one to ask about this—there was an alien race called the Gwanzulum which appeared in several titles published by Marvel UK: Doctor Who, Real Ghostbusters, Thundercats, Combat Colin. Do you know if they appeared anywhere else (particularly in any of the 616 titles)?
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Gwanzulum


Unfortunately I can't confirm if they appeared anywhere else. I've yet to track down which issue of Thundercats they appeared in either. However, since they appeared in Transformers #161 (cover date 16th April 1988), Real Ghostbusters #9 (cover date 16th July 1988), and Doctor Who Magazine #141-142 (first of which was cover dated October 1988), we can at least narrow down the likely issues. Marvel UK didn't have that many comics running original material in 1988. Care Bears was coming to the end of its run, but that seems an unlikely option for the Gwanzulum. Madballs was also running at the start of the year, but (a) ended in March and (b) seems another unlikely venue. Inspector Gadget, The Adventures of the Galaxy Rangers, Flintstone and Friends are all possible options. Alf was entirely reprints, I think, and any Star Wars related title is unlikely, as I believe someone would have noted such an appearance on Wookiepedia by now.

zuckyd1 wrote:This might not be the best place to post this, but the other Omniverse threads are pretty dead. Wikia claims that in Captain America and the Mighty Avengers #7 Kevin Brashear "exited and re-entered the Omniverse itself". Is this solely an error on Wikia's part, or does writer Al Ewing not understand the concept of the Omniverse? Has anyone read this issue?


I can't say for sure, especially without having read the issue yet, but I will say that by its very definition, you can't exit the Omniverse. Since it is defined as including everything, at best you can exit the known Omniverse and discover a bit that was previously unknown - the known Omniverse would then just expand to include the new location.

And on a separate note, we've got confirmation of a Masters of the Universe Multiverse. Can anyone identify the source locations for each of the Skeletors?
http://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-content/ ... 764157.jpg


zuckyd1 wrote:07-08-2015, 04:11 PM

STAR TREK/GREEN LANTERN (IDW, 2015) 6-issue limited series
VAMPIRELLA/ARMY OF DARKNESS (Dynamite, 2015) 4-issue limited series


NetSpiker wrote:07-21-2015, 12:55 AM
Hello everyone.

I want to make my own Omniverse Map, but to include every single connection, I think the map needs to be in 3D. Does anyone know which software would be best for this task?
Ideally, I would like to make a list of what is connected to what and have the program automatically generate the map.

The map I'm planning to make will include video game crossovers as well as comic book and cartoon crossovers. I won't make any distinction between "strong links", "weak links" "real versions" and "counterparts" since I don't care about such things. A crossover is a crossover to me. However, I won't be including unlicensed/unnamed cameos like the Big Bang Theory characters showing up in an issue of Power Girl.


zuckyd1 wrote:07-22-2015, 04:39 PM

ARCHIE VS SHARKNADO #1 ONE-SHOT (Archie, 2015)


zuckyd1 wrote:07-23-2015, 08:16 PM

Archie Comic's latest Sonic/Mega Man crossover event, Worlds Unite, features characters from Alex Kidd, Billy Hatcher, Breath of Fire, Viewtiful Joe, Nights into Dreams, Golden Axe, Ghosts 'n Goblins, Okami, Street Fighter, Skies of Arcadia, Panzer Dragoon, and Monster Hunter.


zuckyd1 wrote:09-12-2015, 07:15 PM

ALICE COOPER VS. CHAOS! (Dynamite, 2015) 5-issue limited series

ITTY BITTY BUNNIES IN RAINBOW PIXIE CANDY LAND: BONG GENIE #1 (Action Lab, 2015) features a crossover with Zombie Tramp.


zuckyd1 wrote:10-14-2015, 07:10 PM

SWITCH is a reimagining of the Top Cow universe which incorporates some previously-unrelated (afaik) characters such as Dragon Prince and Lady Pendragon.


zuckyd1 wrote:11-09-2015, 05:16 PM

ASPEN PRESENTS THE ADVENTURES OF PSYCHO BONKERS #1 (Aspen, 2015) features appearances by Aspen Matthews, Kiani, and Ernie the Seahorse (Fathom), Grace (Soulfire), and Lola (Lola XOXO).

ACTIONVERSE: HALLOWEEN COMICFEST #1 (Action Lab, 2015) features a crossover between Midnight Tiger, Molly Danger, and Stray.


zuckyd1 wrote:12-10-2015, 12:29 PM

BATMAN/TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES 6-issue limited series (DC/IDW)
also found this: http://comicsalliance.com/best-teenage- ... rossovers/


Melou wrote:12-10-2015, 06:18 PM

Stuart V wrote:I can't say for sure, especially without having read the issue yet, but I will say that by its very definition, you can't exit the Omniverse. Since it is defined as including everything, at best you can exit the known Omniverse and discover a bit that was previously unknown - the known Omniverse would then just expand to include the new location.


Ewing seems to have some trouble dealing with the concept of Omniverse (interview on Marvel.com: http://marvel.com/news/comics/25459/iso ... l_universe )

Al Ewing: At the moment, I’m more interested in the idea that Iso-8 is a “cosmic counter,” showing that this is the 8th iteration of the Marvel Omniverse. While the Marvel Universe—singular—has been restarted more than once, that doesn’t count, since other universes rolled right along. This is all building on established continuity: if the “old” Marvel U was the 7th Universe, Galactus was originally born in the 6th Universe, a place of pure Kirby science. New villain Moridun is the last survivor of the 5th Universe, a universe of dark magic. And I’ve got a rough idea of the other universes, but we’re getting into very long-term thinking now...

Marvel.com: What does Iso-8’s existence mean for the larger Marvel Universe?

Al Ewing: Well, it means we’re in the 8th one.


He seemingly used "Marvel Omniverse" and (Marvel.com "larger Marvel Universe") for Multiverse or Megaverse. And also in Ultimates Vol.2 #1.

Or maybe Brashear perceives the Marvel Multiverse as the Omniverse and isn't aware of either DC Multiverse, the Beyonders' dimension, etc. That would be odd.


zuckyd1 wrote:12-23-2015, 12:59PM

BATMAN '66 MEETS THE MAN FROM U.N.C.L.E. miniseries (DC)
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby Andy E. Nystrom » Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:17 pm

Spoiiers for last night's episode of The Flash:

Spoiler:
When Barry, Harrison, and Cisco travel from Earth-1 to Earth-2 we see glimpses of familiar faces, including the Flash from the original series and Supergirl. So while their adventures do not take place on the same Earth, they do share a common multiverse. Given the recently announced Flash appearance in Supergirl, this is not surprising in Supergirl's case, but it's interesting that the Flash could conceivably meet his counterpart from the original series, particularly since that Flash looks like his father. Actually some of the images might be Barry's Earth, different time, but 1990s Flash definitely not, and plot developments on Supergirl make more sense to assume it's a different Earth, though confirmation will soon be forthcoming.
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:59 pm

STREET FIGHTER X G.I. JOE (!DW, 2016) 6-issue miniseries
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:35 pm

LORDS OF THE JUNGLE (Dynamite, 2016) crosses over Tarzan with Sheena.
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:36 pm

GOLD KEY: ALLIANCE (Dynamite, 2016) reunites Magnus, Turok, and Solar and adds Mighty Samson to the mix.
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby Michael Regan » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:10 pm

Not sure if this was brought up yet, but...

We know the Alien and Predator movies share a reality. We know that Soldier take place in the same reality as Blade Runner.

According to Ridley Scott, Blade Runner takes place in the same reality as the Alien movies.
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:17 pm

Michael Regan wrote:Not sure if this was brought up yet, but...

We know the Alien and Predator movies share a reality. We know that Soldier take place in the same reality as Blade Runner.

According to Ridley Scott, Blade Runner takes place in the same reality as the Alien movies.

Interesting. Do you have a source for that?
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby Michael Regan » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:40 pm

zuckyd1 wrote:
Michael Regan wrote:Not sure if this was brought up yet, but...

We know the Alien and Predator movies share a reality. We know that Soldier take place in the same reality as Blade Runner.

According to Ridley Scott, Blade Runner takes place in the same reality as the Alien movies.

Interesting. Do you have a source for that?


Fun unconfirmed screenshot: http://www.slashfilm.com/is-prometheus- ... -universe/

But I believe Scott mentioned this fact in an interview.
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby Michael Regan » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:06 pm

Other than a common author, is there anything to suggest that Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter and Pride, Prejudice, and Zombies share a common reality in print and or the adaptations?
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby Michael Regan » Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:02 am

For anyone who has watched both: Battle of the Planets was adapted from the Japanese Gatchaman, but was enough changed to make it a different reality from the original or can they be considered the same reality?
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Sat May 07, 2016 10:39 pm

DAN SHAMBLE, ZOMBIE P.I. & KOLCHAK: THE NIGHT STALKER (Moonstone, 2016)
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Thu May 19, 2016 3:49 am

FUTURE QUEST (DC, 2016) unites several classic Hanna–Barbera characters, including Jonny Quest, Space Ghost, Birdman, the Galaxy Trio, Mightor, the Herculoids, the Impossibles, Frankenstein Jr., and Dino Boy.
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:55 pm

LUMBERJANES/GOTHAM ACADEMY (Boom, 2016) 6-issue limited series
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:57 pm

BATMAN ’66 MEETS STEED AND MRS. PEEL (DC, 2016)
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:37 pm

CHAPTERHOUSE SUMMER SPECIAL 2016 features a crossover between Captain Canuck and the Pitiful Human Lizard.
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 9:42 pm

EDEN'S FALL (Image/Top Cow, 2016) is a three-issue series that crosses over three Matt Hawkins-written titles: Postal, Think Tank, and The Tithe. (Some links between the three series had already been established prior to this.)
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby Michael Regan » Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:06 pm

Have you ever wondered why Charles Xavier looks just like Jean Luc Picard who, in turn, looks like Patrick Stewart? Have you ever noticed the uncanny resemblance between Johnny Storm, Captain America, and Chris Evans?

Well, wonder no more and be worried about the fragile curtain between these different realities. In the classic episode of The Twilight Zone titled "A World of Difference", Arthur Curtis is a successful businessman who suddenly finds himself on a movie set. The all call him Gerry Reagan. He cannot accept it eventually goes back to the set, meets is on-screen wife, and leaves continuing to exists as Curtis.
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:46 pm

TARZAN ON THE PLANET OF THE APES (Dark Horse & Boom, 2016) 5-issue series
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 1:12 am

HE-MAN/THUNDERCATS six-issue series (DC, 2016)
BIG TROUBLE IN LITTLE CHINA/ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK six-issue series (Boom, 2016)
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby Andy E. Nystrom » Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:35 am

While I haven't seen the movie, soldier Roberta Warren is apparently in Sharknado 3: Oh Hell No! However, the character is best known as one of the main characters in Z Nation, suggesting that the events in the Sharknado movies happen on the same world, only prior to the zombie apocalypse seen in Z Nation.

On a tangent, while I still enjoy the Walking Dead shows, I'm enjoying Z Nation a lot more due to its twisted humour.
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:49 pm

EVIL DEAD 2: REVENGE OF THE MARTIANS one-shot (Space Goat, 2016) crosses over with H. G. Wells' War of the Worlds.
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby Andy E. Nystrom » Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:49 am

Just noticed that one newspaper headline in Reefer Madness says, "Dick Tracy, G-Man in Daring Raid". So if the filmmakers are to be believed, Reefer Madness exists in the same continuity as the Dick Tracy comic strip (or maybe the then-upcoming movie which was released the next year, but that's more of a reach as it was a different studio). Maybe Tracy was trying to seek out whoever tainted the pot smoked in the movie. Because, not having smoked a joint in my life, I can still tell that the characters smoking pot were acting far more deranged than stoned.
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby Michael Regan » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:04 am

The Netflix movie True Memoirs of an International Assassin staring Kevin James presents an interesting take on the multiverse. He plays a writer, and as he writes the events of his fiction unfold for us to watch. If he makes a change the scene backs up and plays forward differently. When he gets stuck, the characters pause awkwardly and wait for him to continue.
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:55 am

They've probably appeared together before, but SCOOBY-DOO TEAM-UP #20 features Space Ghost.
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:24 am

WONDER WOMAN '77 MEETS THE BIONIC WOMAN 6-issue limited series (Dynamite, 2017)
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:07 am

SHUTTER #25 (Image) guest-stars Savage Dragon, Spawn, Witchblade, Glory, Shadowhawk, and Invincible.


THE GREEN GHOST DECLASSIFIED (Moonstone, 2016) features crossovers with Domino Lady, I.V. Frost, the Black Shrike, and the Phantom of the Opera.
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:43 pm

JUSTICE LEAGUE/POWER RANGERS limited series (DC, 2017)
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby Michael Regan » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:58 pm

Is anyone familiar with a mapping-type program which could work with type of data?
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:13 am

PLANET OF THE APES/GREEN LANTERN limited series (Boom, 2017)


They've met many times before, but not quite these versions:
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby vanhornluke » Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:39 am

I just came across an interesting, obscure crossover while reading Dark Horse's new compilation, He-Man and the Masters of the Universe: The Newspaper Comic Strips. In the third story, "Terror Takes Time," I found three crossover references:

1) At one point, Prince Adam has to swing on a vine and he remembers how his mother, Queen Marlena, explained that on Earth (she's an astronaut from Earth who lives on Eternia) there was a hero named Tarzan who swung on vines. The way Adam thinks it, Tarzan was a real person rather than a fictional character.

2) At one point, Hordak shows his time travel device to his minion Mosquitor and says "Careful, Mosquitor! That's the only working time-warp drive in the known universe." Mosquitor replies: "But doesn't it belong to the Gallifre--?" Hordak responds: "No name dropping! I've 'borrowed' it for a while...just long enough to conquer Eternia!" So Hordak apparently stole (or "borrowed") this time-warp drive from a time lord. :P

3) Later, Mosquitor thinks to himself "Maybe Hordak will reward my work with a trip to Wrigley's Pleasure Planet!" That's a planet from Star Trek.
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:01 pm

STREET FIGHTER VS DARKSTALKERS limited series (UDON, 2017)
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:56 pm

ADAM STRANGE/FUTURE QUEST SPECIAL #1 (DC, 2017) (also featuring Top Cat and Batman)
BOOSTER GOLD/THE FLINTSTONES SPECIAL #1 (DC, 2017)
GREEN LANTERN/SPACE GHOST SPECIAL #1 (DC, 2017)
SUICIDE SQUAD/BANANA SPLITS SPECIAL #1 (DC, 2017)
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:00 pm

THE GREATEST ADVENTURE (Dynamite, 2017) crosses over several Edgar Rice Burroughs properties, some of which have already have established links (Tarzan, Pellucider, Barsoom, The Mad King, The Eternal Lover, The Moon Maid, The Monster Men), and some of which to my knowledge don't (The Mucker, The Rider, The Resurrection of Jimber-Jaw, The Girl from Hollywood, Pirate Blood).
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Wed May 10, 2017 10:34 pm

I HATE IMAGE FCBD SPECIAL (2017) crosses over I Hate Fairyland, Astounding Wolf-Man, HAB SOSLL' QUCH Planet, Black Science, Chew, Darkness, Descender, Elephantmen, Hack/Slash, Invincible, Paper Girls, Pitt, Revival, Saga, Savage Dragon, Shadowhawk, Southern Bastards, Spawn, Walking Dead, Witchblade, and Youngblood.
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:22 am

Going back to an old discussion, I've found another possible link for the Twilight Avenger. He is connected to the Miracle Squad, another comic by the same creators. The Rocketeer made a (possibly unofficial) appearance in the miniseries Miracle Squad: Blood and Dust.
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:00 pm

KISS / VAMPIRELLA limited series (Dynamite, 2017)
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby Michael Regan » Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:24 pm

In Action Comics #975 it is revealed that despite all the reality changes since the inception of the DC Multiverse, Mxyzptlk has been the same entity throughout each and every story, even if he has a different name such as Mxyztpk, Mixelplik, etc. possibly including every known incarnation including the Bizarro version, Superman Animated Series, the Super Powers toy line, and the Lego toys (quite possibly the Lego cartoons and games).
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:30 am

zuckyd1 wrote:Going back to an old discussion, I've found another possible link for the Twilight Avenger. He is connected to the Miracle Squad, another comic by the same creators. The Rocketeer made a (possibly unofficial) appearance in the miniseries Miracle Squad: Blood and Dust.

Also Ninja High School shares some characters with Warrior Nun Areala, who has crossed over with Avengelyne, Glory, and Razor.
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:27 pm

THE GREEN HORNET '66 MEETS THE SPIRIT limited series (Dynamite, 2017)
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:52 pm

ADVENTURE TIME/REGULAR SHOW limited series (Boom, 2017)

GRUMPY CAT/GARFIELD limited series (Dynamite, 2017)
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:20 pm

WONDER WOMAN/CONAN (DC, 2017) 6-issue limited series
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:50 pm

HACK/SLASH VS. VAMPIRELLA (Dynamite, 2017)

HARLEY & IVY MEET BETTY & VERONICA (DC, 2017)
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:30 am

zuckyd1 wrote:I HATE IMAGE FCBD SPECIAL (2017) crosses over I Hate Fairyland, Astounding Wolf-Man, HAB SOSLL' QUCH Planet, Black Science, Chew, Darkness, Descender, Elephantmen, Hack/Slash, Invincible, Paper Girls, Pitt, Revival, Saga, Savage Dragon, Shadowhawk, Southern Bastards, Spawn, Walking Dead, Witchblade, and Youngblood.

Also Birthright, East of West, Snot Girl, Trees, and The Wicked + The Divine.
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:48 am

KONG ON THE PLANET OF THE APES 6-issue limited series (Boom, 2017)


BOOM! BOX SOME EN-HAUNTED EVENING 2017 features a quasi-crossover between Misfit City, Giant Days, Goldie Vance, Hi-Fi Fight Club, Coady and the Creepies, and Slam! — although it's actually just the girls from Lumberjanes cosplaying.
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:50 am

One of the stories in SCREAM! & MISTY HALLOWEEN SPECIAL (Rebellion, 2017) features a crossover between Death-Man, the Steel Commando, Doctor Sin, Thunderbolt the Avenger, Blake Edmonds, the Leopard from Lime Street, Pete's Pocket Army, Paddy McGinty's Goat, Von Hoffman, the Iron Major, and the Dwarf.
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:24 am

MARKIPLIER (Red Giant, 2017) is a 4-issue series in which real-life YouTube celebrity Markiplier encounters characters from other Red Giant comics: Tesla, Darchon, Wayward Sons. Magika, Duel Identity, Pandora's Blogs, Monster Isle, First Defense, and Amped.
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:19 pm

ACTIONVERSE FEATURING STRAY #4 (Action Lab) guest-stars a bunch of independently created characters, some making their first print appearances: Storm Owl, Steel Wolf, Thrust! & Velocity Girl, Molecule Man (Lee Gaston character), Dyna Girl, Toy Boy, Paragon, Sentinel, Warde, and Psyker.
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:21 am

TRANSFORMERS VS. VISIONARIES limited series (IDW, 2017)
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Re: Omniverse Map

Postby zuckyd1 » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:11 pm

THE ARCHIES #4 is mostly comprised of a dream sequence featuring the fictionalized tv version of the Monkees.
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